Nice day

[NickB]

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Today was a beautiful day for a walk up the Bealach na Gaoithe . . . more photos in the Gallery HERE.
(Best viewed using the Slideshow - Full Size option)



- NickB

[longshanks]

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Bealach na Gaoithe

Auf English bitte

Longlegs (strides by choice)

ps NickMacB; do you have to walk twice as far as most others?

[NickB]

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Not quite . . .

NickMcB
aka Shortshanks

[sleepy]

"Pass of the wind ":saltire

A lot of it around

[NickB]

"Pass of the wind "

Which is what I said - although I put it in the title of my reply to Longshanks.

Actually I think the Gaelic for that type of wind is something different - it would be Bealach na Braim or something similar . . . translating puns can be a tricky business.

- NickB

[sleepy]

Indeed Nick, a common fart would be 'braim, breim or bram'

However, if one was in polite company and was suffering from a degree of flatulence then it could be described as 'gaothmhor, atmhor, falamh, faoin or gaothach.'

So the Inuit have 40 ways to describe types of snow and we Gaels have at least 8 ways to allude to farting

[longshanks]

we Gaels

Don't you mean "wee wannabe gaels" ?

Did you watch "A History of Scotland" last night ? The question it answered was are Gaels Scots?

A superb programme in my honest opinion. I suppose the gaels were to the scots what the saxons were to the british, and the english to the gaels what the normans were to the saxons.

Maybe?

Anyone of true gaelic heritage on this forum?

Long Boat (descended from gaels by no choice)

[sleepy]

No Longshanks, I mean both wee and large Gaels irrespective of whether they are prolific gaelic speakers or not!

I doubt if there are any fluent native speakers on this Island. I am reliably informed that Gaelic was still spoken on the island in the odd pocket about 20-30 years ago.

No matter, there is nationally a 'nominal' interest in the Gaelic language.

Sadly, I personally don't think it will be enough to save it in Argyll, despite the efforts of Argyll and Bute Council, and it will eventually be confined to the Western Isles and some of the inner Hebrides.

As for the programme, A History of Scotland - Sky Plus is a great invention if you can find the time to watch it

Not sure what 'true gaelic heritage' really means

If you mean did my ancestors from the inner Hebrides and Appin speak Gaelic then count me in as they spoke only Gaelic less than 100 years ago

[longshanks]

Interesting Sleepy.
According to the Census Office in 1991 eighteen residents of Seil were fluent in gaelic. By 2001 this had fallen to ten. Today I can think of only three on the island who are fluent and they are all over sixty. There are, of course, some residents who know a smattering of words and phrases which are dragged out when they wish to express their "localness" (in some cases eg recent English incomers, its a symptom of their wannabe disorder).
I believe that the language should be preserved as it is a beautiful way of expressing poetry and ballad, but it should not be used to reinforce the tacky tourist vision* of Scotland by way of roadsignage. The preservation should be within families, not institutionalised.
*tartan, heather, shortbread, pipes, and monsters.

Like you I am proud of my gaelic heritage (the male line comes from Barra and Harris) and equally proud of my Norman/Irish heritage. I consider myself British in the truest sense of the word.

Longshanks (North British by choice)

[NickB]

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I believe that the language should be preserved as it is a beautiful way of expressing poetry and ballad . . . The preservation should be within families, not institutionalised.

I agree that new road signs aren't the way forward if we want to preserve Gaelic . . . in fact, I would say that preservation is altogether the wrong concept, as it implies something that is static or moribund. A living language should be alive and in constant change, as English is. The single biggest initiative is surely that shown by the Western Isles, Highland and Argyll and Bute councils in encouraging the development of Gaelic medium primary schools . . . that seems to me to be the best way of keeping the language alive in families.

There are, of course, some residents who know a smattering of words and phrases which are dragged out when they wish to express their "localness" (in some cases eg recent English incomers, its a symptom of their wannabe disorder

Of course, as an incomer who was born South of the border I realise that I have no right to comment on the issue . . . unless perhaps 40+ years of Scottish residency and a Scots wife and two Scots children give my opinions some legitimacy. I may have got no further than tha an cu mor dubh aig an tigh in my studies at Inverness Royal Academy, but at least I didn't pick up the niggling case of mild xenophobia that your education seems to have imbued you with. Now that is a disorder.

- NickMcB

[longshanks]

My dear Nick MacB. I was not being xenophobic, merely stating fact. That is unless you consider the phrase "English incomers" to be xenophobic which I don't, its a useful descriptive and differentiative phrase. You really shouldn't take these things personally. If there is reincarnation try not to come back as a fish.
I disagree with your praise of the Gaelic medium schools (another institutional, rather than family, attempt to preserve the language). The experience of Welsh medium schools is proving disastrous for the youngsters involved. They are entering the world of work disadvantaged by having English as a second language.
Gaelic should be taught in schools in the old areas of Gaelic settlement and there should be choice expressed by families as to whether their children learn it.

Longpants (freezing and wishing that global warming was true)

[Herby Dice]

Don't know where you get the idea that Welsh kids are disadvantaged, as it is nonsense. It is extremely rare for a child taught in a Wlesh medium school to fall behind in competence in English - the overwhelming majority of children taught in Welsh-medium schools are as fluent in English as those from English-medium schools, by their early teens at the latest. They may be taught in Wlesh at school, converse in Welsh with their parents and their friends, but are also constantly exposed to an overwhelmingly English-language culture. I certainly have never met a Welsh speaker who is anything other than completely bilingual (at least, exposure to two radically different languages seems to encourage learning a third, or more).

Indeed, it is still the case in some areas that English-speaking parents send their kids to a Wlesh-speaking school as they are seen to offer a better education. So disadvantaged they most certainly are not.

Same with native Gaelic speakers - who has met one (in the last half-century or so) who does not speak fluent English as well?

[rubberseal]

I must disagree with you, Herby. I know at least three Welshmen who use Welsh as their first language and who sometimes struggle in English. While it must be true that not all share this affliction, it must also be the case that some do. It is only logical that an individual may sometimes falter when using a language that is not his/ her most common idiom.

[Herby Dice]

How old are these 3 Welshmen, Rubbery? Most of the Wlesh folks I know are of the younger persuasion, and their English is uniformly perfect - face it, if people want to watch TV, read, go to the movies, in Wales, they pretty much have to do these things in English (Pobol y Cwm excepted, perhaps). Indeed the idiom of the younger Welsh (by which I mean under perhaps 50) contains a huge amount of English vernacular. I can honeslty say that I have never met a Welsh-speaker under about 80 who does not speak fluent, vernacular English. Same goes for Gaelic speakers too.

[longshanks]

Same with native Gaelic speakers - who has met one (in the last half-century or so) who does not speak fluent English as well?

Sorry Herby (loved your films by the way); try heading out to The Western Isles. There are plenty who speak fluent Gaelic and very poor English. Same is true of many Gallic, Breton, Welsh and Basque speakers.
Sadly Cornish died out, not because there were no Cornish roadsigns or Cornish medium schools but because it lost its economic and social purpose in a part of the World where English assumed these purposes. It was allowed to die by the very people whose parents once spoke it.
I sincerely hope that this is not the fate of Gaelic, hence my banging on about the importance of the family (not the State) in preserving it.

Long Sentence (Convicted by choice)

[NickB]

"English incomers" . . . . a useful descriptive and differentiative phrase

Kindly explain how it is any more useful or illuminative in this discussion than the plain use of 'incomers' . . .

-N
(Short by choice)

[Herby Dice]

Sorry Herby (loved your films by the way); try heading out to The Western Isles. There are plenty who speak fluent Gaelic and very poor English. Same is true of many Gallic, Breton, Welsh and Basque speakers.
Sadly Cornish died out, not because there were no Cornish roadsigns or Cornish medium schools but because it lost its economic and social purpose in a part of the World where English assumed these purposes. It was allowed to die by the very people whose parents once spoke it.
I sincerely hope that this is not the fate of Gaelic, hence my banging on about the importance of the family (not the State) in preserving it.

From my own experience (and for the reasons which you state yourself), which has involved spending much time in N Wales, Britanny and the Basque regions, what you say is only true of the older generation, if at all. Even amongst the Basques, as fiercely protective of their culture and language as anyone, the ability to communicate freely in Spanish or French (and, indeed, in English too for many of them) is considered essential. Not even the most die-hard ETA fanatic believes that speaking only Basque (a language possibly unrelated to any other European language) is possible in the modern world. This is true throughout the Celtic fringe - even if young people want to preserve their language and culture, they also want to go to the movies, listen to pop music, watch TV, and to do these they need fluency in a more "maistream" language.

I agree that the State cannot force the preservation of a language, and should not try. I do believe the State must allow it to flourish if it wants to, as most governements have done in allowing, perhaps encouraging, education in that language, subsidising broadcasting and so on. These are, however, very recent introductions. As long as demand is there, these should continue to be provided.

As for Gaelic road signs, I am all for them - but the place names should not be bilingual. Gaelic names should be written in Gaelic, English names in English.

[longshanks]

"English incomers" . . . . a useful descriptive and differentiative phrase

Kindly explain how it is any more useful or illuminative in this discussion than the plain use of 'incomers' . . .

-N
(Short by choice)

Blimey, we are a bit touchy today.

Kindly explain why you appear to object to my use of the word "English".

Are you one of those who cannot bring yourself to use the E word and have to resort to such ridiculous phraes as "Down South"? (Which, by the way used to refer to Glasgow in my youth)

Jean Shanks (Not related to a Brodie by choice)

[NickB]

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Kindly explain why you appear to object to my use of the word "English"

Because it was completely superfluous unless you intended to imply that the English had in some way less 'right' to take an interest in Gaelic than, say, Aberdonian incomers or anyone else from a non-Gaelic speaking area.

I think most of our regulars would agree that this is not the first time you have made slanted comments apparently intended to disparage the English, which is particularly ironic considering your chosen pseudonym. I would have thought you were educated enough to have shrugged off that particular chip.

As for your reference to an English incomer's interest in Gaelic as being

a symptom of their wannabe disorder

What exactly does this mean? It would appear that the Longshanks position is that incomers are barely tolerated here and that it is futile for them ever to hope to 'belong' in any meaningful sense to the community. I think, my xenophobic friend, that you are in a very small minority on this one. There are many of us 'incomers' who appear to be better integrated into our community than you are.


- N

[Seil Sally]

Watch your blood pressure Nick - sounds like you're caught firmly on the hook !