Who's country is it?

[NickB]

However...perhaps if we ask PP VERY nicely he will resume the debate...

I did, but my most recent post has disappeared too.

Are we having a sensible discussion as Alex Salmond suggested or not?

Sorry, I haven't deleted anything other than one post I made late last night - and Foxglove's, which I have restored. Anything else is a malfunction of some sort - the server's, yours, mine, who knows?

Please repost if a post has gone missing. All comments that don't radically and blatantly contravene forum T&Cs are welcomed, though I would prefer it personally if people could stick to the topic at hand. If you prefer to slag me off then fine, it is a dull, wet day and I am past caring.

As to 'are we having a sensible discussion' . . . well, that is in the eye of the beholder.

[Foxglove]

I must apologise for the accusation of posts being removed...I was on the wrong thread.

[NickB]

When I've been living abroad for long periods doing good deeds, climbing skyscrapers etc, I have always strongly felt that I should not vote in Scottish and UK elections/referenda as it has just seemed morally wrong to do so; also because absence results in lack of understanding of domestic day-to-day issues. It's a kind of respect thing too, respect for those staying in the country to actually make their own decisions. I wish all the exiles currently moaning would show the same respect. KAPPPPOOOOOOW!

Happy New Year Spiderman.

[Pentlandpirate]

Most importantly, as I stated earlier, I believe it is also morally right that the future of the country should be decided by those who have chosen to make their future here

The point I'm trying to make is, this is my country. I live in a State, a country, called the United Kingdom. Those bits called England, Scotland, Wales, NI, make up the country some 60+ million of us share. What gives the right to a small minority, about one tenth of the population, to decide the future of all of us, because if Scotland became independent it could have considerable impact on all 60+ million of us?

Scrapyards break up cars. Quarrymen break up rocks. Schools break up for holidays. It is ridiculous to suggest that by saying "break up the UK" I am insinuating that Scots are home wreakers.

But still, all the way from the top of this thread I see no substance to justify "why?" Scotland should separate. Why will some Scots vote YES?

[Foxglove]

Ah..now we are getting to the interesting bit..because I just cannot see why anyone would vote 'yes'. As for Tony the Toads post of thundering and plundering..well, my Scottish father travelled south and 'plundered' [ ] my English mother. I have lived here many years..also in England, so am very interested in all this.

[spiderman]

Where you and I primarily disagree, PP, is that you clearly consider Scotland to be just another region of the UK, whereas I consider Scotland to be a country in its own right, one entitled to enjoy the normal condition of being able to make its own decisions and to determine its own future. We may make a mess of running our own affairs, though frankly I doubt it, but at least we'll do it ourselves and will not be drawn into ludicrous wars overseas, be subjected to government by parties that that have no or little mandate in Scotland and will not have an inflated and expensive delusion about its role in the modern world. Frankly "Yes" is a no-brainer! Kappoooow!

[NickB]

What gives the right to a small minority, about one tenth of the population, to decide the future of all of us, because if Scotland became independent it could have considerable impact on all 60+ million of us?

Are you suggesting that the Union is like the Hotel California?

"Relax," said the night man,
"We are programmed to receive
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave! "

It is a weird club where a member wanting to leave finds the fire exits locked and barred.

You are out on a bit of a limb here P, the UK government and opposition have unanimously agreed that the decision is one for the residents of Scotland and no-one else to make. The Edinburgh Agreement has been signed. Time to move on to discussing issues rather than process.

[NickB]

Why will some Scots vote YES?

The head of the YES campaign, Blair Jenkins, recently turned this on its head to ask us to imagine that the Act of Union had never happened and Scotland was already an independent country. Now imagine a referendum being held on entering into a Union with the same parameters that apply today:

Vote YES to Union because:

• Your main parliament will move hundreds of miles away and your MPs will be in a small minority.
• You will have a government you didn't vote for.
• You will hand over all your oil and gas revenues to the London Treasury.
• The biggest nuclear arsenal in Western Europe will be based on the River Clyde, 30 miles from your largest city.
• An austerity budget will be imposed from London, cutting jobs and threatening public services, instead of Scotland being responsible for raising and spending its own taxes.
• You will join a country whose health and education services are rapidly being privatised.

Scotland would surely have to be in a strange or desperate position before it voted for that.

[Pentlandpirate]

Nick, you can't turn the clock back. It's a fair question to ask where Scotland would be now if it had never joined the Union. I really do believe it has done better by being in it.

Faslane has never been a problem and provides valuable local jobs. Scottish dockyards will immediately lose all contracts to build and maintain UK navy vessels if Scotland separates.

As someone who works in the private sector I see no problem with private companies providing public services. They normally do it more efficently.


Regarding teh referendum, I accept that the process has been agreed, but I feel the principle is wrong. The vote on Scottish Independence will affect far, far more people outside Scotland than it will inside. But I can agree (!) that let English voters have a say too, and there is a great chance they would say get rid of Scotland. Personally I don't want that. I quite like my country, the United Kingdom, the way it is. It's not perfect but you've got to admit a hell of alot of people still want to come here. It must have some attraction. I just don't understand what it is that makes some people in Scotland want to change what we have. Not enough people in the world appreciate what they have, rather than worry about what they don't have.

What is it that some Scots think they will have if they get independence that they don't have now and how will they be certain they will get it?

[NickB]

What is it that some Scots think they will have if they get independence that they don't have now and how will they be certain they will get it?

Scotland has drifted ever further apart from the rest of the UK politically over the last three decades. Meanwhile Scottish cultural values and awareness have seen a huge renaissance. Quite simply, decisions made in Westminster no longer represent the wishes of the majority of the Scottish people.

I can't do better than quote the YES campaign:

The reason for being independent is a simple one. It is fundamentally better for all of us if decisions about Scotland’s future are taken by the people who care most about Scotland - that is by the people of Scotland. It is the people who live here who will do the best job of making our nation a fairer, greener and more successful place.

Pentland, you know the old saying - if you love something, let it go . . .

As to 'how can we be certain we will get it' - well we can't, but bringing government closer to the people and making it more accountable is a good start.

[Pentlandpirate]

Do you not agree Devo Max would have been a better solution?

[DonnieC]

I can only agree with Nick.

If you heard Blair Jenkins, of the 'Yes campaign, talk at the SNP conference he spoke of imagining Scotland as an independent country contemplating joining our neighbours to the south and west in a union.

I can't find it on Google but it is there somewhere. Pentland, please read it and tell us if you're tempted to change your opinon.

'I live in a State'.............my quote button is not working............I hope you get better soon PP!!!!

[DonnieC]

As for Devo Max - what's the difference between that and full independence? For me the answer is either yes or know.

Found it!

[youtube]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BSASpl9b72s[/youtube]

[NickB]

Do you not agree Devo Max would have been a better solution?

That's dead in the water. It was the line in the sand the Westminster government were not prepared to cross.

We have a straightforward choice now. If we become an independent country we must take full responsibility for making our own way in the world. We will however be able to make defence pacts, trade deals and alliances with whoever we choose on terms we personally agree to as a nation, just like any other 'proper' country.

If we vote 'No' we get the status quo, with more English resentment over the West Lothian question, the Barnett forumla etc - and decisions that affect Scotland being made by a government virtually no-one here voted for.

[longshanks]

Do you buy your spurtle from the same shop as Longshanks?

I find you somewhat rude "DonnieC"

[DonnieC]

Rude? - Nice to see you back Longshanks! I always thought you had a sense of humour?

What's your take on the present debate. Should be right up your street!

[Pentlandpirate]

Backed into a corner is the way it sounds. That's not a choice.

What I see is some people swept along on a wave of emotionalism and parochialism. Where is the substance the makes a Yes vote worth giving?

It's propostrous to say imagine if you turned things round and you were being asked to join a union on the criteria you give. It is more relevant to ask where Scotland would be if it had remained an independent country and had not joined the Union. Where would it be? I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest it would be way behind. The Union has been good for Scotland. What are the Scots going to do differently to make things better if they become independent? Where will their money come from in the long term?

[longshanks]

Donnie, I have no idea what Longshank's thoughts are on the subject, but I would be interested to hear them.

PP. As you have probably noticed I rarely visit this forum these days, let alone comment, and have not done so since a couple of years ago when things started to fall apart here. DonnieC's spurious insult and Foxglove's well expressed disquiet today may help you understand why. I prefer to spend what little time I do on forums on ForArgyll's forum nowadays as it is much more active than this one.
However, whilst here, I think you have a perfect right to answer the question which started this thread. It is shameful that the immediate response from two contributers has been to belittle you and to deride your arguments. That shows the lack of confidence which exists on the Yes side.
To specifics; The independence question has always been with us, we Scots are too wise to ever actually vote for it to happen, it is raised every so often by a small minority (support rarely exceeds 30% in the polls over the years), and it is quite sensible to expect a resounding No vote next October. As to who should vote. I think it quite reasonable that all those who live here should be the ones; Scots, Anglo Scots, Polish Scots, Pakistani Scots etc. If you live here you should have a voice. There are 400,000 Anglo Scots and an estimated 250,000 Polish Scots. The vast majority of those will vote No so have no fears about Scots living in the rest of the UK being disenfranchised. The expats from other places now living here know the value of being part of a larger entity.
I will vote Yes as a gesture to my Harris grandparents and ancestors but know that will not affect the actual outcome.

Shankers (Brit by choice)

[NickB]

The independence question has always been with us

Or, more accurately, has been with us for 305 years

it is quite sensible to expect a resounding No vote next October

It was 'quite sensible' to expect a labour adminsitration to be setting up camp in Holyrood up until 6 weeks before last year's election as well. It isn't over until the votes are counted, and we still have a long way to go.

[DonnieC]

'Spurious' ............well you seem to take the insult as 'false.'

Is this you off...........'Homeward to think again?'

This is too dreich a day to waste on here. I'm off to the pub, where they talk real sense, see you all there!!