Vote YES for a Two tier Britain

[Innes Newton]

Today it was announced that Britain is the fastest growing economy in the G7.

Unfortunately Yes campaigners don't want that. They want higher taxes, poorer pensions, higher interest rates, rising unemployment, plunging North Sea Oil revenues, and a greater difference in wealth between Scotland and rUK.

After Independence doomsday Labour will lose its Scottish MP's leaving the Conservatives to govern rUK longterm. RUK will be a low tax economy supporting business and wealth creation. An independent Scotland will go the other way. Private businesses will leave Scotland for the more vibrant and profitable opportunities in rUK. There will be a brain drain. Scotland, stuck out on the limb of a foreign country with no land links to other markets will shrivel under a socialist government that still has no plan, no idea, other than a dream based on pure fantasy and emotion.

I don't want the UK to split. Scotland is part of me, and I feel I am part of Scotland This crazy con to ruin the UK, and in turn, ruin Scotland, needs to stop. We will all lose from it, but those who live in Scotland risk becoming the worst losers. An independent Scotland will only exist in the shadow of the Auld Enemy. It's time the Yes Campaigners recognised their best course of action is to support the UK and actively work to improve it, instead of complaining and whinging. No one respects a whinger.

Vote YES for a two tier Britain if you want, but are you really turkeys voting for Christmas?

[NickB]

Utter guff.

[Innes Newton]

Utter guff.

Which bit?

[NickB]

Utter guff.

Which bit?

Everything after the first paragraph.

[NickB]

No one respects a whinger.

Why don't you stop whinging then?

[Innes Newton]

Utter guff

I think that perfectly sums up the fantasist claims of an independent Scotland by the Yes Campaign. They really haven't a clue what damage they would do to Scotland and the people who will live there.

Higher taxes
Higher interest rates
Poorer pension provision
Fewer jobs
Plunging oil revenues
A landscape full of very expensive, inefficient wind turbines, which Scotland will lose its subsidies on.
No viable defence. No NATO
No currency union to use the Pound
No control over interest rates.
Faster rates of Scots emigration/an increased brain drain
No immediate EU membership.
An economy that will decline because of all of the above

All of these will be the long term results of Scottish Independence, a socialist state, kept in a corner behind the fastest growing capitalist state in the G7. Scotland will fast become a second rate nation compared to rUK. Think Cuba v USA, think East Germany v West Germany, think North Korea v South Korea.

Has Alex Salmond revealed the legal advice on whether Scotland will be admitted into the EU yet? You better be certain that Scotland can join the EU very fast because otherwise come Independence Day (fortunately, so far, it has only been a Hollywood film)............yes, come Scottish Independence Day, everything stops on the border.

Nick will only reply with guff, guff, guff because he is incapable of giving an opinion without being overbearingly dismissive of anything he disagrees with, normally with a significant under current of insult. There's no suggestion of, "Yes you say...., but don't you think that....? Or rather than "Pure guff", how about, "If you think that, what about....?"

As commentators have observed, we have been at it ding dong for so long, so that I almost hope Scotland gets independence to punish those who voted for it. But how about we have more of a conversation, as Alex Salmond always said it should be, where we ask each other questions and discuss answers rather that try to give a killer answer, while trying to be discretely insulting, to everything, and change the tone a bit? It could be so much nicer.

I'll start the discussion. Do you hate England? No, no, I'm just teasing!

If you were going to make a country better (any country), what are the things that you would want to improve?

[Bill McDicken]

Innes, you and the rest of the panic brigade are sounding like Fraser in "Dad's Army"........"Wir DOOM'D....Wir DOOM'D."
You give no credit to the fact that the Scots will NOT just sit on their backsides after Independence but will be FREE to make the BEST decisions for Scotland. As for the planet falling over and us all perishing ( as you anticipated in another post ) , I can't say it will never happen, but you won't be able to blame Scottish Independence.

[Innes Newton]

Actually, if anything I suspect I am more like Captain Mainwaring...........

Anyhow, it is true that if independence happens and Scotland does see the promises of the Yes Campaign come to fruition then the Yes Campaigners will have no one else to blame, but others will blame them. Remember there is no way back, no second chance. Many will argue that the electorate have been presented with a vision of an independent Scotland which is unrealistic, without any downsides. The Yes Campaigners play to people to vote with their hearts rather than their heads. Yet in so many ways it should be basic economics that dictates whether an independent country can create the things it wants, because things cost money that doesn't grow on trees.

I do give credit to the Scots. They have made a disproportionate contribution to the UK and the wider world, but they have done it from within the UK. I wish that to continue. There are no figures on it but I suspect there are far more people in the world with Scots blood in them that would wish Scotland to remain part of the UK, than exist in the whole of Scotland. If that is the case what is it do you think makes Scots outside Scotland feel differently to some Scots who live in Scotland? Is it a different appreciation of values?

(By the way, I am trying to ask more questions, and invite more discussion....lets try to steer it that way)

[NickB]

.
It is certainly true in my experience that the most vocal expat Scots are largely against independence. My hope and suspicion is that the vocal ones are a minority and the rest will be proud and happy to see their country growing up and managing its own affairs. I am optimistic that substantial numbers of expats will return to Scotland once they see her flourishing as a successful independent nation.

As to why the vocal few are against it - well, they have been unable or unwilling for one reason or another to commit to Scotland and have gone to seek their fortune elsewhere. Meanwhile they want Scotland to remain exactly as they remember it - a false illusion, as nothing is as we remember it. Scotland is a country in the grip of major social and political change, and anyone who hasn't lived here since the Scottish parliament re-opened in 1999 can have has no real idea of how the country has changed in their absence.

Anyway, the referendum question will be asked of and answered by the people who live here at the time, whether by choice or circumstance. That is right and proper, and follows the franchise for other independence referenda worldwide.

[Bill McDicken]

I agree Elaine. The only facts that are actually facts are historical. i.e. we know something happened and to what degree.
To throw around predictions as what will Scotland be like after a "Yes" ( or a "No") vote is simply speculation, (and in almost all cases biased) and not facts. Who said " A week is a long time in politics"? well he was quite right.
Personally, having looked at the information available and applying gut instinct I reckon Scotland will be a better and more interesting place to live in after the "Yes" vote. There are no facts to base that on so I guess I'll be voting with "heart" and not "mind". Probably Innes will find that illogical and nuts but that's how most folk will vote.
So come on Innes Newton show Elaine your crystal ball!!.

[Innes Newton]

Are you truly comfortable with the unanswered questions? Don't you feel you would have liked a lot more to have been sorted out in advance? Facts on EU membership, currency, taxation, jobs, pensions, defence, etc, etc? Is there an acceptable excuse as to why these matters have not been worked out in the previous 40 years of the SNP working towards independence? Is there a reason why they could not have put together a credible plan instead of the airy fairy wish list they have come up with? It's far from a promising start, admit it? A logical mind like mine says this is not a well researched and planned proposal for the peoples of Scotland. And there is no reason there couldn't be, One can only suppose the Yes Campaign were incapable of doing it.

[NickB]

None of these matters can be sorted out 100% before the referendum because of the flat refusal of the Westminster government to discuss them.

All the uncertainty is driven by the NO campaign. They see it as a major part of their strategy, spreading FUD day after day, dismally recycling the same old, discredited scare stories.

Project Fear is not working though. Ordinary people are beginning to see right though it.

Now, a question for you. When are you going to answer Peter Connelly's question?

[Innes Newton]

All the uncertainty is driven by the NO campaign.

It was the Yes Campaign's job to tell the voters what they could expect with independence. In that respect they have failed miserably. And they have been building up to it for 40 years so should have had it all well worked out. The reality is that everyone loses out if Scotland separates. The Yes Campaign have taken far too much of what we have that benefits every one of us for granted. It is the Yes Campaign that has been so negative on the merits of the UK and instead created a cherry picked wish list from their most deluded dreams. It is the Yes Campaign that would happily throw away some of the most basic and fundamental benefits of the UK permanently. they don't even acknowledge such things exist. If that isn't being negative, then what is?

Now, where was Peter's question? Have you deleted it or moved it....can't find it anymore.

[NickB]

The reality is that everyone loses out if Scotland separates.

You've been at the crystal balls again, haven't you?

[Bill McDicken]

Are you truly comfortable with the unanswered questions? Don't you feel you would have liked a lot more to have been sorted out in advance? Facts on EU membership, currency, taxation, jobs, pensions, defence, etc, etc? Is there an acceptable excuse as to why these matters have not been worked out in the previous 40 years of the SNP working towards independence? Is there a reason why they could not have put together a credible plan instead of the airy fairy wish list they have come up with? It's far from a promising start, admit it? A logical mind like mine says this is not a well researched and planned proposal for the peoples of Scotland. And there is no reason there couldn't be, One can only suppose the Yes Campaign were incapable of doing it.

Hi. Innes. Welcome Back.
Answers to the above:
Yes.
No.
No ( Facts? what facts would those be?)
Yes,( because that would be impossible )
Yes, ( see above, )("airy fairy" from the No Brigade? that's a bit rich!!)
Yes, it's a very honest start,



Can I remind you Innes that you still have to answer Peter and Elaine.

[Innes Newton]

Can I remind you Innes that you still have to answer Peter and Elaine.

Please tell me which questions and in which thread? I can't find them.

[Innes Newton]

A bit more realism, a little less leading people up the garden path please: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... paign.html

[NickB]

A bit more realism, a little less leading people up the garden path please: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... paign.html

The article you linkto does not dispute the '14th richest nation' claim. It only questions how much of that wealth would filter down to ordinary people.

Redistribution of wealth is certainly more likely in an independent Scotland than under the present Westminster government.

For some strange reason your Telegraph article fails to mention this.

[Innes Newton]

No, what you fail to mention is that statistics can be made to tell you anything you like. And the Yes Campaign has used this statistic to mislead people into getting a certain impression about how they will get a share of that wealth, and fool them into thinking they will have more cash in their pockets after independence.

One of Alex Salmond's most senior former economic advisers, Prof John Kay, formerly on the First Minister's Council of Economic Advisers, said it was a "mistake" for voters to think claims of an independent Scotland being one of the world's wealthiest nations would mean more cash in their pockets.

Alex Salmond will merrily let you believe what you want to believe but he is like the Pied Piper (what an apt name for an over fed Scotsman doing what he's doing!)

[NickB]

. . . the Yes Campaign has used this statistic to mislead people into getting a certain impression about how they will get a share of that wealth

So you admit that Scotland will be wealthier than the UK after independence?