Referenda on the Islands (ROTI)

[Innes Newton]

Now the northern isles demand a vote on independence from Scotland if there is a "Yes" vote.

It was inevitable. As I suggested a long time ago, there is a strength of feeling in the northern isles that has grown with the alarm at what an independent Scotland might do with their oil, and an out of touch government far in the south in Holyrood.
If Scotland should vote Yes for independence, islanders have lodged a demand to have their own referendum a week later on whether they should remain part of Scotland. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 17514.html

[NickB]

Looks like it has mostly been signed by busybodies and troublemakers rather than people from the isles.

I bet you've signed it haven't you, though it is of course none of your business.

[jimcee]

You can't let it go, Nick, without a pooh-pooh.

[NickB]

You can't let it go, Nick, without a pooh-pooh.

Jim,

It is utterly ridiculous that people like Innes Newton, resident in England and with no apparent intention of making himself eligible to vote by moving to Scotland, should be trumpeting a petition demanding a referendum on the status of the Northern Isles. It really is nothing to do with him, nor is it anything to do with all the other residents of Englandshire who have signed this rather sad petition.

Fair enough if it succeeds in garnering the necessary 1,000 signatures from islanders, but of course it won't. There is little or no support for independence for the Northern Isles in the Northern isles. At the moment, of the 910 signatures gathered only 545 actually give Scotland as their address, and I suspect very few of them are actually from Shetland.

This is just another stupid tactic by the NO campaign that will blow up in their faces and result in a comfortable YES vote in the Northern and Western isles come September 18th.

And of course a poll was conducted in the islands last year (2013). Have a look at the result:



In fact those favouring Scottish independence ended up comfortably outnumbering those backing the union following a two-hour debate at the Althing in Tingwall Hall as recently as last Saturday night.

Debating the motion “The time is right for Scottish independence” were SNP list MSP Mike Mackenzie and Scottish secretary Alistair Carmichael.

At the outset the 150-strong audience were almost split down the middle, with 58 backing independence and 57 preferring to remain within the UK, while 31 were undecided.

Come the night’s end, a sizeable swing had seen the number favouring independence rise to 70 while support for the union fell to 48, leaving 22 still to make up their minds.

That is what people really think in Shetland.

[Innes Newton]

It is utterly ridiculous that people like Innes Newton, resident in England and with no apparent intention of making himself eligible to vote by moving to Scotland, should be trumpeting a petition demanding a referendum on the status of the Northern Isles. It really is nothing to do with him, nor is it anything to do with all the other residents of Englandshire who have signed this rather sad petition.

No it isn't so ridiculous. What's the matter? Don't you like it when the shoe is on the other foot? A minority of self interested, selfish individuals are demanding to split up my country, the UK, against my wishes, and against the wishes of the overwhelming majority in the UK. I have an interest and I am making it known as I have a democratic right to do as part of the same democracy that unfortunately gave you the right to vote for independence. I don't live in Englandshire, anymore than you live in Scotlandshire, I'm British, half English and half Scottish, and as a result I have a strong interest in keeping it together, as the land that I was born into and that my father, grandfathers, and forefathers (from England and Scotland) fought to protect. Living in Caithness I had a stronger affinity with those in the northern isles than those living doon south (anything below Inverness). Unfortunately a bunch of troublemaking, socialist activists have been making a fuss and noise and based on one huge con after another are sleepwalking Scotland into a fool's paradise.

Nick, you are English, and always will be. Don't forget it.

[NickB]

..
Normally, petitions such as these require 50,000 signatures before they will be given parliamentary time. But because of their small populations this rule does not apply to matters concerning the islands. Those behind the petition hope that 1,000 names will be enough for their request to be taken seriously. And it might be enough - if it was actually people from the islands signing this petition, but of course it isn't.

It's mostly being signed by desperate people like yourself, who are prepared to go to any lengths to subvert the democratic process that is taking place in Scotland.

I note you have carefully ignored my posting of the results of the P&J poll last year, which show quite unequivocally that there is no support for island independence in Orkney and Shetland.

You really do have a total contempt for facts and honest debate, don't you? You turn and twist every time one of your alleged 'arguments' is unpicked. You would make a good politician.

[NickB]

.
Of course, these attempts by Westminster to use the Northern Isles as a pawn are nothing new.

According to a report published in the Times newspaper in 2009, during the campaign for Scottish Home Rule in the 1970s, UK Treasury officials suggested encouraging local campaigns for independence in Orkney and Shetland in order to deprive Scotland of as much of the oil reserves as possible.

In his diaries, the late Anthony Crosland, who was a Cabinet Minister in the Labour government until his death in 1977, admitted that the UK government intended to plant stories with sympathetic journalists and politicians to foster divisions between the Northern Isles and Scotland as part of a campaign to subvert Scottish self-determination.

Mr Crosland and his civil servants suggested that this could be achieved by carrying out "confidential briefings of selected public opinion informers" and placing articles in the press with no acknowledgement of official involvement.

There is more information on this in Bella Caledonia's article 'The Shetland Card'

[Innes Newton]

So you believe the P&J poll from last year but you don't believe the independence polls this year?

You really do have a total contempt for facts and honest debate, don't you? You turn and twist every time one of your alleged 'arguments' is unpicked

I've got to laugh! You really don't think that you are every bit as guilty of this? Or that Salmond is? Or the whole "Yes" Campaign?

Honest debate? Having a different view and expressing an opinion does not make someone dishonest. As for the people of the northern isles, a minority are requesting a referendum to leave an independent Scotland. They may be a minority now, but where would the SNP be if you had dismissed them so easily even 20 years ago? If an independent Scotland is to be a fairer nation then who are you to deny them their opinion or right? After all there would be no independence referendum in Scotland if everyone took your view. If Scotland does vote Yes, you must expect a backlash.

I have contempt for facts? The history of the UK is based on fact. Everything about an independent Scotland is conjecture. Alex Salmond has delivered few facts, or even plans. The list could be endless, but he has ignored:

Taxation will have to increase
Pension costs will rise
Oil revenues are going to nose dive (I saw diesel at 132.9p per gallon on Saturday)
Scotland will not be in a currency union with UK Pound
Scotland cannot join the EU immediately or even at all
Jobs and businesses will emigrate south
Scotland will be isolated
They have not even worked out what it will cost Scotland to become independent.

Making Scotland independent will create a two tier British Isles. Scotland will become the poorer relative, shackled to miserable future due to the noisy moaning of a minority of Scots who expect something better for doing nothing. As I said before Scotland is being conned into a fool's paradise by people who ignore the facts. Those are the people whose honesty you should question.

[NickB]

Making Scotland independent will create a two tier British Isles. Scotland will become the poorer relative, shackled to miserable future due to the noisy moaning of a minority of Scots who expect something better for doing nothing. As I said before Scotland is being conned into a fool's paradise by people who ignore the facts. Those are the people whose honesty you should question.

I defy you to produce ANY figures to support this.

In fact, Scotland outranks UK on international performance and is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. That is - of course - why Westminster is fighting so hard to ensure a NO vote. If Scotland was the economic basket case you like to portray it as then do you think they would want to hang on to us? Do you see it as an act of charity, perhaps?

As anm independent nation, Scotland would be ranked as the 14th wealthiest nation per head within the OECD, the grouping of the world’s richest countries.

Including North Sea output, Scotland’s GDP per capita in 2012 was 11 per cent above that of the UK, which is ranked 18th out of the 34 OECD countries. These rankings (Scotland 14th, UK 18th) remain unchanged from the previous year, 2011.

[jimcee]

As a little diversion from these two protagonists, who both have an axe to grind - and the grinding is getting heated.
Now one of these is an English person living hereabouts. The other is a Scot currently resident beyond our borders.
Which of these two should have a legitimate right to vote on the future of Scotland?
Personally, I would say neither or both - but certainly not one in preference to the other.
However the administration of voting appears to make it a lot simpler to include one section and bar the other. Simpler, but not neccessarily fairer.
I could expand on this subject, but will leave it meantime to see whether anyone out there feels like contributing

[NickB]

What makes you think Innes Newton is a Scot? I am not aware he has ever claimed to be, He has claimed to be 'half Scots' - meaning presumably that one of his parents was a Scot but that he was born elsewhere.

And why do you think where I was born and spent the first 14 years of my life is more significant than the next 46 years spent in Scotland where I went to school and University, worked, got married and raised my family?

Residence is the only sound basis for the referendum franchise. . . surely you can't really believe what you are suggesting? Several SNP MSPs were born in England . . . Are you suggesting denying them the vote as well? Or should voting perhaps be based on genetic profiling?

I can't help thinking you are venturing onto thin ice here.

[Innes Newton]

And why do you think where I was born and spent the first 14 years of my life is more significant than the next 46 years spent in Scotland where I went to school and University, worked, got married and raised my family?

And I can argue the exact opposite. (Elaine you'll have to blame my learning difficulties on a Scots education). I genuinely intend to return to Scotland in the future so why do I not have some say on its future in preference to the thousands who will leave Scotland next year for good?

It's an interesting twist, a fairly made point, that the population of rUK be given a referendum on whether Scotland can join a currency union to use the pound. I can't see Scotland getting a Yes on that vote, can you?

[NickB]

.
A SHETLAND councillor has dismissed efforts to persuade the Scottish Government to stage separate referenda on independence for Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles as a “half-witted idea”.

LINK

According to the article a grand total of 15 people in Shetland are behind this idea.

[jimcee]

Where are you Herby Dice or even Nick Bowles?.
Just because you have a sidekick who supports you does not give you licence to ignore the vituperative outpourings of someone who calls a poster a w***er (delete as neccessary) and now someone with learning difficulties.
If this is the tone of language that you are prepared to accept on your website then I suggest that you shut it down forthwith.

[Innes Newton]

Jim, as we get older I'm sure we all look around ourselves in bewilderment at the state of the nation around us, and how standards have gone down in so many ways. If Scotland does vote Yes we can only hope that creating a better and fairer society might include raising moral standards, good manners and respect. Unfortunately I didn't see it in the White Paper.

As for name calling, etc, rest assured it doesn't faze me, not least because I don't think or care if they are referring to me.

You always conduct yourself here with decorum and everyone should respect that

[jimcee]

To the best of my knowledge, I have never had a post removed because it was in any way innofensive personally, and I would be most interested to hear what Elaine Rodger is referring to.
Having said that, I would be most interested to hear the views of either or both moderator and administrator on the intemperate language currently being used on this website. Perhaps they could come out of the woodwork and give me, and probably many others, their views on whether they consider this type of behaviour conducive to the best interests of the forum.
So far they have been keping a low profile - I wonder why?

[NickB]

To the best of my knowledge, I have never had a post removed because it was in any way innofensive personally, and I would be most interested to hear what Elaine Rodger is referring to.

PM sent.

[jimcee]

Please Mr Administrator, enlighten me on the significance of what the cryptic message "PM sent" is.
I presume that this was directed at me, and would like to know how it will affect my daily life.
As for Ms Rodger, the less said at this time, might prevent an escalation of the vitriol.
And H. Dyce - you are still keeping your head below the parapet, on what is surely a matter of concern to you.
Finally, I am sorry if all this appears to be "off topic", but it is only in response to the topic subject that these circumstances arise, and any reference to them on an outside topic loses all context and contuinuity.

[NickB]

Jim,

A PM is a private message.

Go into your user control panel. (Top right)

[Herby Dice]

Where inappropriate language has been used, I have taken action. This thread (and indeed the entire topic of independence) has become heated, but that is the nature of debate. We are all grown-ups here, a little light abuse (particularly when the abusee has not registered any complaint) does not merit my intervention. Be assured, Jim, that I will intervene when I consider it necessary but also please recall that decisions on moderation policy reside with me, not you.

I will remind people that I am here, and will intervene if necessary. Let's try and keep it adult and polite, folks. Don't take disagreement so personally. It's only politics.