Seil Chat

What do we think??? Saltires flying in Tripoli an all...

Was he definitely guilty? I remember there being a lot about suspected trial abnormalities / unfairness.

If he was guilty then he should have stayed in prison.

If there is doubt about the wholesomeness of the verdict an appeal is required, not a fudge. Surely we should have the courage of our convictions?

I am a little worried that there may be an element of the SNP wanting to demonstrate that they are nobody's poodle.

Disgraceful decision.
Who does MacAskill think he is to totally undermine our justice system? Judging by his rambling speech yesterday afternoon and his attempt to fend of Gavin Estler's forthright attack on Newsnight he clearly thinks he's Moses.
With Saltires flying alongside Libyan flags at the triumphal return of Magrahi at the celebrations on his return to Libya has made us the laughing stock of both the arab world and all civilized society.
What are the facts:
1. 270 totally innocent people were murdered in the skies above and on the ground of Lockerbie.
2. Magrahi was found guilty of being one of those who organised this atrocity by:
A Scottish Court
Before a Scottish Judge
Under Scottish Law.
3. Magrahi was sentenced to Life Imprisonment.
4. He has been released (totally unconditionally) by MacAskill after serving a mere ten years.
An insult to the victims and to our judicial system.
MacAskill should hold his head in shame.
Predictions
1. Magrahi does not die of cancer but makes a miraculous recovery.
2. Salmond announces a massive trade deal with Libya within a year.
3. U.K. oil companies get massive oil concessions in Libya.
Is Magrahi innocent?
Well Gaddaffiduck says he is, so he must be, eh !

Long Dredd (Mail reader by choice)

Away and bile yer heid, Longshanks. This decision does great credit to the Scottish legal system by showing compassion to a dying man. The same decision has been made here many times in recent years. Is there a religion worldwide that wouldn't advocate this?

Pity you are so cynical and that the hypocritical Americans are so pseudoreligious and right wing.

Sandy MacSeil wrote:the hypocritical Americans are so pseudoreligious and right wing.

Grossly insulting generalisation of American people and thus racist.
Cynical, moi? No realistic and a man of the world.
I have many American friends and emails this morning are hugely worrying.
1.
My experience is that us Scots, on holiday or business in the States, have always received a warm welcome; partly because of our Scottishness.
I fear that our next visits over the pond will no long prompt genourous welcomes and hospitality but, rather, hostility because we Scots will all be associated with MacAskill's madness. The reaction of the American media and, I take it, many millions of Americans, is one of fury towards the decision, and, by association, us.
2.
I fear, now, for Scottish formations fighting in Afghanistan who, up to today, rely on American help for kit, logistics and most tellingly air and artillery support. It only takes one redneck artillery commander receiving an urgent fire mission request from a Scottish unit to feign bad comms.

Sandy MacSeil wrote:Away and bile yer heid, Longshanks. This decision does great credit to the Scottish legal system

I've always said that one of the things holding back us Scots (I take it you are a Scot?) is our inability to take criticism and responsibility for our mistakes, and to react to such criticism with venom and a sense of victimhood.

Shankers56 (Proud Scot by choice)

Cripes !
Just been sent this link by a friend in Boston
http://www.boycottscotland.com/
What a Pandora's Box MacAskill has opened !
BTW anyone know why the MacAskill's are not officially recognised as a Clan and don't have a clan tartan?

Shankers34 (worried Scot by choice)

I think it was the correct decision and a demonstaration of humanity rarely seen in the world today.

Whether you agree or disagree with the decision it was Scotland's ...and therefore Kenny MacAskill's decision to make - Not Brown's or Obama's.

Longshanks and the Americans can't recognise the finer things in life, like sympathy and compassion for a dying man. What can you expect from a nation that bombed Hiroshima, shot down an Iranian jumbo jet, killed tens of thousands of innocents in Iraq and abandoned all standards of justice at Guantanamo Bay. Scottish justice has risen above all that debased modernity and has shown the world what real old-fashioned decency involves. Be proud! Poodle Longshanks, be ashamed!

And Myra Hindley...?

My understanding of the Scottish Judicial system is that in certain circumstances a prisoner can apply to be released from a life sentence if he/she falls into one of three categories and one of these is if he/she is terminally ill.

He can be released at the discretion of the of the Justice Minister.

Kenny Macaskill was not undermining the Scottish Legal System but upholding the very same.

No matter what decision he came to he would be hounded.

I think he should have used his discretion in recognising Magrahi's obvious terminal medical condition but in the circumstances surrounding Magrahi's involvement in Lockerbie I would not have granted his release.

Magrahi was involved to some degree in the deaths of these 270 people.

The Lockerbie trial produced a guilty verdict on Magrahi based greatly on circumstantial evidence which today is being called 'unsafe' by victims' families on both sides of the Atlantic.

I have no doubt of his involvement to some degree but like so many incidents in contempory times the truth is out there somewhere and I doubt if the real truth about Lockerbie, the dodgy dossier, the Kennedy Assasinations and other fudged issues will ever be known.

On the subject of dodgy items the saltires being flown in the tv footage looked as though they may have been manufactured in a backstreet bazaar in Tripoli - pretty disreputable, along with the obviously staged triumphant return.

Despite my confidence in Scottish justice I did find the whole business of Al Megrahi's conviction unsettling at the time. The manner in which he was' given up' by Libya makes me think he was set up as a martyr for the state so that the country could re-enter the international community (the hero's welcome he got on his return only makes this seem more probable). The proof that he was the man that set the bomb just does not seem to be conclusive.

Yes, the correct procedure might have been to hear Al Megrahi's appeal against his conviction, but perhaps there was an uneasy feeling within the Scottish government that the legal process that convicted Al Megrahi had been corrupted by international (US) pressure. Realising his conviction might be unsafe the Scottish government found an excuse in Al Megrahi's terminal illness to get rid of him in preference to scrutiny of the original conviction through an appeal process. Who knows, it could be that Al Megrahi's illness is completely fabricated.

Whatever, I don't feel confident he was the bomber. Having somebody, anybody in prison serving a sentence doesn't give me any sense of satisfaction or justice unless I am convinced they are the criminal. Now, if he was definitely the man who planted the bomb, and he was terminally ill, I would feel it wholly right that he serves out his sentence. We're all dying, so how about some compassion and respect for the still living? Justly convicted criminals should serve their sentence no matter what God may curse them with.

I wonder how the parents and family of WPC Yvonne Fletcher are feeling today?

Oh Sandy, my old friend, you don't half spout some righteous rubbish sometimes

Sandy MacSeil wrote:Scottish justice has risen above all that debased modernity and has shown the world what real old-fashioned decency involves

Its not only us who regularly release convicted criminals on compassionate grounds; all western nations regularly do just that. Only two weeks ago England released Ronnie Biggs on just such grounds. We are not the only saintly nation rising above "debased modernity" (whatever that might be (!)
The questions being asked by the rest of the world are;
1. Was Scotland right to show compassion to a convicted terrorist who showed no compassion himself to the 270 victims of his mass murder?
2. Is there a motivation (eg trade deals) other than compassion behind the release?If so, how disgusting.
3. What message does this give to the terrorists, who actively want to destroy our way of life, about our strength or weakness?
4. Who next? Myra Hindley? Ian Huntley?
My concerns mirror these questions. Additionaly I am concerned about how Scotland is now seen by the rest of the world and my fear is that we have lost the goodwill which America used to show us Scots and that it is being replaced by animosity.
In passing I am concerned by the obvious hatred you show of all things American

Sandy MacSeil wrote:the Americans can't recognise the finer things in life, like sympathy and compassion .......... What can you expect from a nation that bombed Hiroshima

I would suggest that you read a history of the last war so you can understand how America (and the British Empire) was responsible for saving liberty and democracy around the world from tyranny. However regrettable were the deaths of civilians at Hiroshima it was a price the world had to pay to finally end the war. The only alternative would have been the deaths of millions if the Allies had to invade, and fight inch for inch, the islands of Japan.

Shankers89 (compassionate when appropriate, by choice)

Compassion for a dying person is unconditional. The dying man is probably innocent, found guilty because of withholding of evidence by security personnel of the very countries that now show anger. Politically and generally, the Americans are war-mongers and exploiters of the planet, with little respect for the freedoms and rights of other countries. And no concept of humility or compassion. Releasing this Libyan has improved Scotland's image with the rest of the world (apart from USA) and is widely seen positively by the Muslim world. We have the moral high ground, despite being the country that the jumbo fell on. The relatives of our dead generally support the release. I am content.

4. Who next? Myra Hindley?

I don't think the release of a long dead corpse would offend anyone Shankers!.

As for you Yankee argument you may well be correct with

deaths of civilians at Hiroshima it was a price the world had to pay to finally end the war.

In the case of Hiroshima you may well have an argument.................However the bombing of civilians in Nagasaki a few days later was an abhorent experiment, militarily unneccesary, gratuitous and immoral.

State terrorism perhaps?

The racist bile directed against Americans on this site is really very saddening. Are we not a tolerant people ?

Sandy MacSeil wrote:Americans are war-mongers and exploiters of the planet, with little respect for the freedoms and rights of other countries. And no concept of humility or compassion

then couple that with self righteousness and expressions of superiority over everyone else

Sandy MacSeil wrote:.....has improved Scotland's image with the rest of the world (apart from USA) ......... We have the moral high ground,

smacks of the extreme nationalism we saw in the Thirties.
# The release of the mass murderer has NOT improved our image in the world; read the headlines in Spanish and Italian newspapers for example.
~ How on earth do you know that the relatives are "generally content" with the release ?
Still, I accept that everyone has a right to their own views and feel compassion towards though who praise the release of a mass murdering terrorist.
I object, though, to ultra-nationalist racism, but. of course forgive those who express it.
Eric; thanks for letting me know that Myra Hindley is dead. I hadn't heard. She is now getting the reward for the life she led which is satisfying.

Shank24 (believes in tolerance to all races, by choice)

Oh, the delicious irony of it !
There's Kenny ("England is devil's spawn"*) MacAskill praying for something, anything, to take that mad decision off the front pages and England go and win the Ashes; prompting wall-to-wall coverage at the top of all news bulletins and the front pages of the newspapers relegating Megrahigate to second place.
*Yes, he did say that. A few days later he was arrested for being drunk and disorderly outside the old Wemberly before the last ever England V Scotland (1-0 to Scotland) footie match and spent the whole game in police cells ! He quotes that incident with self-righteous regret as he tries to justify a massive stealth tax on whisky with his minimum pricing proposal.
Looking forward to him being on the receiving end of Scotland's wrath in Hollyrood this afternoon.
Who made the decision? Mandleson, Brown and bigoil ! MacAskill and Salmond are just their poodles and told us a blatant lie when claiming it was MacAskill's decision alone. Talk about patsies !

Al Shanks97 (Whingeing Pom by choice)

As usual, you are outspoken, frivolous and out of touch. Along with those buffoons Grey and McConnel, you wouldn't recognise decent values if you met them in your soup. Opportunists and embarrassments all! I think the majority of Scots are proud of MacAskill's decision, made in accordance with and on the basis of Scottish legal practice and advice. As he said himself, it was a decision that wouldn't please a large fraction of the people whichever way it went. If he had not followed standard legal practice and advice, he would not have been a responsible Justice Minister. He ignored the political aspects and, in many ways, bravely hung himself out to dry on behalf of Scots law and old-fashioned decent values for vultures like you to take your easy pickings. In golfing parlance, a long shank is when you hit the ball some distance sideways off the club into the long grass...............