Seil Chat

How weird! This afternoon, I read here a new thread started by NoS. It was perfectly respectable and related to an article in today's Independent newspaper. The article was a commentary written by Dominic Lawson, son of Nigel, and dealt with the putative role of Scots in the present financial crisis. NoS asked us to read the article and, if we felt as strongly as he did, to log on to the post-article blog in the Indie and register our disagreement. I went away and read the article and the related blogs for 15 minutes then came back on-line here to answer NoS, only to find that the thread had been removed by our censors. Can they please explain why? Are we living in a Nanny state island? Are we to be treated like children? Is an article in a national newspaper not reasonably discussable here. What's the game? By the way, the original article is at http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 23819.html

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I saw that post as well and in fact spent some time reading the appalling Independent article it was linked to and the comments. There was no reason on Earth to pull the post, and I certainly didn't. I can't speak for the Vic as we haven't communicated today, but I would be very surprised if they had pulled it either.

So - I suspect NOS pulled it himself while it was still editable. Why is a mystery. It certainly wasn't censored by us.

Here's a link to the article

(A bit neater than yours Mona )

If NoS pulled it, I humbly apologise, Nick. But this is a time when several freedoms are being nibbled away at, nationally and internationally, and the least we can do is protest and oppose, even at local level. Let's hear from the Vicar (often religious extremists are the narrowest) or from NoS.

A pretty unpleasant article, and one that contains very little beyond rhetoric and insinuation, but hardly sufficient to delete the link to it. Given my record so far of very moderate moderation (Post deleted: none. Posts edited: none. Posters banned, suspended or even warned: none) I am frankly mildy surprised that people can come so readily to the assumption that my narrow religious zealotry may have led me to delete this post. I assure you that I did not - if I had, I would at least have left someting in its place to let people know something had been deleted. Rest assured that when my mighty sword of decency is brandished, all will know of it.

Given that neither I nor the board administrator deleted this post, the only person with the authority to do so is the poster him- or herself. I leave it to NoS to provide an explanation, or not, as he/she sees fit.

Apologies all round then. I jumped to the wrong conclusions too quickly. Maybe that's what NoS wanted?!

Saw the same post late yesterday afternoon and realised it would need more concentration than I could give it at the time. So I thought it would be best left for a good read later. OOPs Too late

What I did read of it - I couldn't think why Nick or Vic would pull it, so, as the buck appears to be at NOS's door, any explanation forthcoming

Thanks for putting the link to the article in your post Mona, hen. I've been reading it this morning and my opinion is that Lawson has been telling it like he sees it from a London perspective for a newspaper with a largely English readership and that he hasn't actually fabricated anything.
What saddens me is the predictable responses of outrage by my fellow countrymen on the Lawson forum.
We do have one or two faults, as a people, one of the worst is our refusal ever to admit that something may be our fault and that all our woes are the fault of others, particularly those south of the border. Unfortunately this trait of ours is being made ever worse by Salmond; note his viputeric anti English speech in Washington on Tuesday and his excuse, last week, for abandoning his manifesto promise of axing Council Tax as being the fault of Westminster. Regarding the theme of Lawson's article Salmond blames the fall of RBS on spivs and speculators in London...I ask you!
I dearly wish for Scottish independence but we don't deserve it if we still refuse to accept responsibilty for our problems.
NOS...why did you cancel your original post?

Shankers( (my fault by choice)

We do have one or two faults, as a people, one of the worst is our refusal ever to admit that something may be our fault and that all our woes are the fault of others, particularly those south of the border.

It seems that this trait is catching, as our friends South of the border now appear to be blaming the Scots for all their woes - hence the appearance of articles like this. Polls appear to show that support for Scottish independence is currently much higher in England than it is in Scotland - a curious situation.

NickB wrote:support for Scottish independence is currently much higher in England than it is in Scotland - a curious situation.

Curious?
My English friends justify their desire for Scotland's independence in four ways:
1. A desire for English independence (which would come with the dissolution of The Union).
2. A feeling that the English taxpayer is subsidising the Scottish (try to counter that one with the old "its our oil" argument and what you get back is that resources found on or around the UK are UK resources eg North Sea gas off Norfolk belong to UK, not England)
3. What they call the "democratic deficit". I've even heard quoted that the scottish parliament voted for Union in 1707 but the English parliament didn't.
4. Petty, but they are totally pissed off by the "whoever England are playing" non joke.
So maybe not so curious.

As far as blame for our financial (and social) disaster. Personally I feel that we all take the blame. The root cause is massive borrowing of all sorts. Who can honestly say that in the last ten years that they've saved the money before buying, say, a fancy new plasma TV? No we want instant gratification so we've shoved it on credit. When I see people paying for groceries on the credit card I wince.
Its neither England nor Scotland to blame. It is all of us for our revelling in the credit driven consumer society.

Shankers (taking responsibility by choice)

Have you been nosing over shoulders at checkouts Long Shanks???

canUsmellthat wrote:Have you been nosing over shoulders at checkouts Long Shanks???

I nose everything, smelly.
Fear not...I wouldn't put my nose anywhere near any part of your "body".

Long Nose (puppet by choice)

I think the Scots should be grateful the 'English' haven't suggested RBS is a 'Scottish' problem and only Scots tax payers should pay to sort it out. Too long some Scots have blamed all their ills on the English, and what we're seeing is some English taking a well-deserved poke back in jest. In jest only, because they want to make some ignorant Scots aware that this country is Britain and we all share our laughter and tears as one nation. We are indeed stronger together than apart.

That's a matter of opinion, PP. I - and many others - think we would should be running our own affairs here in Scotland and, whether by increased powers at Holyrood or full independence, that's certainly the direction in which all parties are moving in the wake of public opinion. And this to be done in harmony with England and Europe. Can't say I agree either with your old-fashioned national stereotypes or with Longshanks' either. You're almost as bad as young Lawson! All gross generalisations, bias and distortions. The recession and banking problems aren't a Scotland v England issue at all - it takes some pretty twisted logic and prejudice to paint it in such colours! Let's all live happily together but allowing each neighbour to run its own affairs. Freedom!

And, NoS, where are you? Why did you start all this?!! We demand to be told!!

Mona,

What do you think Scotland would have done differently to prevent this?

What do you think Scotland would have done differently to prevent this?

Alternative histories are a fascinating branch of science fiction PP, but who knows or really cares? The Act of Union was to a great extent forced by the economic crisis bought about by the Company of Scotland and the Darien bubble - an early example of toxic debt. That was three hundred years ago however. The current economic system is discredited, the political system is discredited - forget the past and bring on the new order.

Ok, what should Scotland do to achieve a better future and fix the current problems?

Ok, what should Scotland do to achieve a better future and fix the current problems?

I think we have made a good start with proportional representation and a parliament that comes close to practising consensus politics at times. Building on what we have via the Calman commission and devo-max or through independence via the ballot box is the way to go. The next step has to be that money spent in Scotland is raised in Scotland; apart from anything else, it is the only thing that is going to put a stop to the growing anti-Scots feeling the English media seem to be intent on stirring up.

Clearly the Scottish parliament needs borrowing powers but, until they gain these, they must fight the cuts planned from Westminster and try to begin some programmes to create new jobs and infrastructure. Difficult given reduced funding, limited powers and minority government. Thus far, they have begun to do what they can. If you go to the UK Government’s new "real help now" website launched recently by Gordon Brown, you will find that it lists SNP Government action, such as the Council Tax freeze and flexible business support, as key efforts being taken in the UK to help the economy through the recession.

Gordon Bennet ! I find myself increasingly agreeing with the Pirate!
I'd love to agree with Mona but she seems to be under the influence of Mel Gibson. I have, on rare occasions, even agreed with Nick MacB. Like I said; rare.

NickB wrote:The current economic system is discredited, the political system is discredited - forget the past and bring on the new order.

I'd love to hear a brief description of your proposed "new order"

NickB wrote:

Ok, what should Scotland do to achieve a better future and fix the current problems?

I think we have made a good start with proportional representation and a parliament that comes close to practising consensus politics at times.

What !!! Its PR which has given us a sterile minority government which has scrapped all its manifesto promises bar one because it is unable to get them through. If we'd stuck with first past the post it is far less likely we would have ended up with a totally ineffective minority government. Oh, and "coming close to pratising consensus government" means failing to.

NickB wrote:the growing anti-Scots feeling the English media seem to be intent on stirring up.

From my experience the media most certainly don't need to do any stirring at all. Try spending an RBS banknote in England now and you'll hear responses which have nothing to do with the media.
So
Despite my desire for independence, I agree with the Pirate in that its best that we're all in this together. Separate now and its bye bye Edinburgh, hello Harare.

Shankers (not disagreeing with MacB by choice)