Being Scottish

[longshanks]

Having read Nick B's recent comment:
"I would have taken Scots nationality were it available"
I thought it may be interesting to discuss what makes a true Scot (as opposed to the what my Dublin friends refer to as the Plastic Paddy type).
I'll start the ball rolling with the SRU definition when deciding if a talented rugby player is allowed to represent Scotland.
You can play for Scotland if you fulfil one of these conditions (and have the talent):
1. You were born in Scotland.
2. Either of your two parents were born in Scotland.
3. One of your four grandarents were born in Scotland.
I applied this test to myself and find I could run out at Murrayfield (one of my nephews already has) as I qualify through both 2. and 3.
Is this a true way of deciding if you are Scottish or not?
How will Lec decide when independence comes? Presumably the deciding factor will be residence but what about the millions of Scottish emigrants residing in England? Will they have to accept an English passport given that the EU does not recognise dual nationality within its member countries.
Must go...need to locate the family birth certificates.

[Seventhseil]

Why will nationality be an issue if or when Scotland becomes independent????
Why do I feel that publishing is a non-job....well unless it involves technical, medical or educational publications you could publish stuff untill the end of the world and you won't have done any one a bit of good.
"Torchwood"!!.....stop watching kids TV, next you will be telling us Harry Potter is high art....

[longshanks]

"Why will nationality be an issue if or when Scotland becomes independent???? "
Well, Sven, governments of independent countries like to have citizens which they can govern so at the time it will need to be decided who is a citizen of Scotland. Makes sense I think.
So the question is what will be the criteria?
I agree that independence is not inevitable, but it is the stated aim of our governing party which will become a lot closer to fullfilment should the Tories gain power again in Westminster. Do you not think that then most Scots would be happy for a referendum?
The issue then is what impact may holding a Scottish (as opposed to a U.K.) passport have on our lives. If Scotland has to wait for entry to the E.U. then huge implications on travel. If our security standards don't come up to U.S. demands then similarly. One could go on.
So, back to the theme of this thread. How do we define a true Scot.
BFN

[Pentlandpirate]

How do we define a true Scot.

It's a good question if you put a question mark on the end of it

But you won't get an answer.

[NickB]

.
I wonder where all those Americans came from . . .

- NickB

[canUsmellthat]

"well unless it involves technical, medical or educational publications you could publish stuff untill the end of the world and you won't have done any one a bit of good."

Seventh, you can't really mean that, stop the hauler please!!! It's just not true. What about the good fictitious literature that working folk relax to at the end of a hard days toil?! And what about the poetry, someone mentioned burns night, does Burns’ efforts not count? I know you don’t really mean it and you were just trying to describe something that got your dander up.

I think we better be careful with this topic, it could resort back to the question about "what is a proper local", in fact, I think it'll be the same argument...


And please don't start going on about the clearances and RSPB...

[Eric the Viking]

Scotland has to wait for entry to the E.U. then huge implications on travel. If our security standards don't come up to U.S. demands then similarly

We Norwegians chose not to be in the EU - we do OK Ja?

Yankee boys still come? Maybe they want our oils....or Torskfiske?

I see not your point

Svenseil? Are you having viking roots too?

[Herby Dice]

You can play for Scotland if you fulfil one of these conditions (and have the talent):
1. You were born in Scotland.
2. Either of your two parents were born in Scotland.
3. One of your four grandarents were born in Scotland.

Or 4: You have completed 36 months continuous residence in Scotland prior to playing.

I think you will find that many, probably most, of us incomers could also don the blue (assuming they wanted to put out a team of old, overweight, unfit wrecks). Surely that makes us Scots should we choose so to be.

[Pentlandpirate]

Apparently this is what Australian Prime Minister John Howard said:

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote:

' IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'
' This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'
' We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'
' Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
' We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
' This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,
' THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
' If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

Would Alex Salmond's version for Scotland be much different?[[/quote]

[NickB]

Would Alex Salmond's version for Scotland be much different?

Meaning what exactly P?

Personally I agree to an extent with Mr Howard. Sharia law - as currently practiced in fundamentalist muslim countries - is incompatible with both English and Scottish law and is an affront to most people brought up in a humanitarian or christian morality Nothing wrong with immigrants keeping their own religious observances, customs and traditions as long as these dovetail reasonably comfortably with the overall laws and mores of their adopted society. However, if their way of life is fundamentally incompatible with that of their adopted country - eg total intolerance of members of other religious or social groupings or the promulgaton of practices which are either illegal or abhorrent in their new environment - then they should look for another country to emigrate to whose values are more in keeping with their own.

In any event, I have no reason to suppose that the Scottish policy on immigration will be fundamentally different to the current UK policy. If anything it is likely to be more tolerant.

SNP Shadow Justice Minister Kenny MacAskill MSP said recently

"Our economic needs and social wants are different and distinct to the rest of the UK. As a nation of emigrants we wish to see immigrants coming to Scotland dealt with kindness and compassion, not brutality and oppression.

"It's time to hand over the powers of immigration to Holyrood so that we can ensure Scotland has a stable population with talented migrants that are treated with respect."

But to get back to the general drift of the thread . . .

What on earth do the Ozzie and SNP government's respective stances on immigration have to do with the status of incomers to our fair Isle from South of the border? I know some of the incomers have strange habits such as eating Yorkshire pudding or reading the Telegraph, but I think we can absorb these quirks without too much social stress, don't you?

(Although the use of provocative historical nom-de-plumes on local bulletin boards may be outlawed come the glorious day . . . )


- NickB

[Minimum]

My grandparents' surname began with Mac - do I count?

My partner loves mushy peas - is that a red card??

[Eric the Viking]

I am thinking we could be having a Scottishness exam for all you wannabees.

Maybe you are needing more than a Lidl's kilt and a liking of deep fried food?

[Seil Blubber]

Mr Nibbs, if we are to judge you by your postings on this forum to date it then is unlikely that you would be accepted as a citizen of any country other than the one unfortunate enough to have hosted your birth.

Are you that ugly in real life?

[Seventhseil]

"Seventh, you can't really mean that".....well would the world be any worse off if J.K Rowlings novels had not been published? No.

As for Mr Howard he's a bit of a racist.....although I do feel fear of being branded a racist stops proper discussion of immigration and religion and subjects that are related.

As Nick said I do think if you move to another country you should try to integrate as much as possible without losing your ethnic identity, but I wish we would move towards a secular society as it would be far fairer rather than having to pander to relgious differences.

[canUsmellthat]

But never the less, a secular society based on religious morals - whichever religion the new society once believed in! New components to any society have to adapt and the ghost of religion past might disrupt your idea of human utopia.

I do agree that harry potter is utter tripe and the woman's a damnable copycat but the books have inspired kids all over the globe to take up reading thus encouraging literacy, this can't be a bad thing, nay?

[Seventhseil]

Why do morals have to be tied to religion?
"New components to any society have to adapt and the ghost of religion past might disrupt your idea of human utopia."
Indeed, which religion do you mean, or are you talking of Christianity's wholesale ripping off of pagan festivals??

[canUsmellthat]

Where on earth do you think morals have their roots? and I was talking about societies in general therefore religions in general.

I meant that even if a society does become secular, its moral being would still function the same as it did when it was a religious society. I think that this would be true for any society and its corresponding religion in the world.

So even under a secular model, novel components to the model that have experienced different moral pressures from different moral societies would still find it difficult to assimilate. Maybe...

[Herby Dice]

Don't think it is necessarily true. Moral codes developed to protect society in general and individuals in that society - if I am not allowed to kill you, then at least you are not allowed to kill me either etc. etc.

This morality then becomes codified into a religious framework, partly to introduce a greater level of threat - if you do this, not only will society be disrupted but the gods will be displeased with you in all sorts of unpleasant and possibly eternal ways - and partly to give those who control and interpret that religious framework a great deal of power. In most societies until relatively recently, the people who control the gods (inasmuch as they are the ones who declare who and what the gods are and what their rules are) to a very large extent control society. Even kings had to listen to their priests.

So no, I do not think that morals have their roots in religion, but rather the converse.

[Eric the Viking]

Where on earth do you think morals have their roots?

Wher are the morals in putting to the sword all those who do not follow the same set of beliefs as you?

Religion has been responsible for more war, death persecution and suffering than any thing else !!

[canUsmellthat]

Eric, I'm merely discussing the basis of moral philosophy, I don't want to have an argument about your subjective opinions, however correct or incorrect they may appear to be...