Who's country is it?
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:26 pm
Who's country is it?
I hope, as Alex Salmond suggested, we can have a sensible discussion on the independence of Scotland without personal insults and racism rearing their ugly head.
It's a topic forced on the population of Scotland, England, the whole UK, even the EU and of interest to millions of individuals spread around the world who are proud of their birth nationality, their parental and family origins or other connections to the land called Scotland.
So who's right is it to determine the future of this land? Who's country is it?
It seems the decision may be limited to "the permanent population" of Scotland, to those only named on the electoral register, although this will have to be altered to include those over 16, if Alex is to have his way. But why only them?
What about all the Scots around the world, members of famous clans, who have emigrated to Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere across the globe, people who often celebrate more of their Scottishness at Highland Gatherings outside Scotland, than the Scots do in the home nation? Why can't they have some say in the future of the land of their fathers?
What about all those 'Scots' who were born in Scotland but moved to England or further afield perhaps purely to get a job, but might at some stage return 'home'? Are they to be denied some say?
What about those who have one Scots parent (or perhaps one Scots grandparent, making them eligible to play for Scotland's Football and Rugby teams) but have lived outside Scotland all their life, why shouldn't they get a vote?
What about individuals with one Scots parent who spent much of their life in Scotland but travelled south for work, but intend to return to Scotland in the future, why shouldn't they have a vote on the future of the land they might be a part of soon?
What about those who might be referred to as English, Welsh, and Northern Irish? Why shouldn't they have a vote on the future of Scotland as it is an issue that will affect them too?
Why should any person in Scotland over the age of say 65 be allowed a vote? Afterall it would take a while to separate Scotland if the vote went that way and a sizeable proportion may not live to see the changes separation might bring?
Why should anyone in Scotland over the age of 16 be allowed to vote, if they might leave Scotland and not be there to enjoy/regret the decision?
Should you give the vote to migrant workers, such as many of the eastern Europeans, who may have the means to live as long as they wish to in Scotland under EU rules, but a significant proportion of whom may move home or to another country reasonably soon? In other words they may have a vote but neither have the "Scottish" heritage or care to worry what the outcome is?
For me, it is a 'conversation' I wish the SNP had never started. As far as I am concerned there are far more important issues in the UK, and Scotland, risks costing us all a fortune and destroying a united nation. For what?
I was born with the nationality of 'British'. It says that on my passport. I live in a nation called the United Kingdom (or Great Britain), a state recognised by the United nations and EU. I've lived in many parts of this country, in England, Scotland (the longest I lived in one place) and in Wales. I currently live in England, but have always hoped to return to Scotland and may still do one day. I have blood roots in that part called Scotland. I'm proud to be British, living in the United Kingdom. Who has the right to split up my country (which is made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) without asking me? Is that democratic?
I like the romantic idea of an independent Scotland to see Rob Roy dashing through the heather, beautiful glens bathed in sunlight or crisp snow, the skirl of the pipes drifting with the wind from a high castle turret. But there it ends.
It's true that local government is a good idea on many levels but it has its limit. It's great to be on your own when times are good and have the freedom to have your own choices. But when the crap hits the fan, boy, it's nice to have a few friends you can lean on. Yes voters are told that Scotland's independent viability is assured based on just two resources, oil and green energy in the form of wind and tidal power. This is so risky. Oil and other sources of energy are not the rare commodities they were only a short time ago. Huge new oil deposits have been found in more accessible parts of the world and risk making North Sea Oil comparitively expensive and difficult to extract. This could mean the demand for North Sea Oil falls once more reducing income and jobs in that industry. Wind power fails to perform and a new report has found that turbines only last half their anticipated life. Tidal power simply hasn't got past the experimental or small scale stage. Should either of these perform poorly, what income has Scotland got to feed a whole nation? Banking? What would have happened if RBS and HBOS had been in an independent Scotland? Could Scotland have afforded to bail them out? It's a clear example where being part of a 'bigger' nation has saved the day.
So according to Alex Salmond Scotland will be a separate member of the EU. Will it? What do we know the EU for? Red tape, beaurocrats and silly rules. Do you think they will change the rules just for Scotland, just like that? No, Scotland will have to reapply. And that can take years and years. The Catalans want independence from the rest of Spain but the EU are desperate to stop Spain from falling apart. It could bring the EU to its knees. So it is likely the EU would refuse Scotland EU membership to encourage the Catalans they are walking into a dead end. And does an independent Scotland really want to join the EU when there are now more countries making noises about leaving it than joining it? Does Scotland want to start paying for failing economies in Greece, Spain, Italy and possibly France soon?
And if Scotland left the United Kingdom and became independent, how would it fare if at some stage the rest of the UK left the EU? Scotland would be so isolated. Costs on all imported goods are likely to rise, even if they came straight across from Holland. The rest of the UK could free itself of so much of the EU red tape and get back to trading more freely. (For decades Europe has been Britain's biggest export market. This changed just a few months ago when Britain started doing more trade to the rest of the world than Europe). Scotland could end up with an even worse neighbour (if they feel that way about England already) sucking up its labour talent, taking business and making it difficult for Scottish business to compete in England. Let's not forget the rest of the UK has nearly 10 times the population of Scotland, a great market for Scottish business that may be closed out to 'foreign' competition from Scotland.
The list of things that would change can go on and on.
My question to the Scots who vote YES (bearing in mind I consider myself British with Scots blood) is, "Why?". Well actually, it isn't. It's actually, "WTF do you think you are doing?"
Forget Bannockburn and that rubbish movie filmed in Ireland with a crass Australian. Have you erased Culloden out of the wonderful kilt flying romantic idea of Scottish history? Look at how England, with Scotland, Wales and Ireland went on to create the greatest empire the world has known. Even today we are stronger together, in a difficult and uncertain world. Why are some Scots prepared to take a risk? For what? Why do they follow a leader who doesn't really care what happens, like Tony Blair? He wants to leave his legacy, get his name in the history books, no matter whatever that means for those that come after him.
I would vote, "No!" to Scottish Independence. But it seems I am denied a vote on the future of my country which is the United Kingdom.
Discuss!
I hope, as Alex Salmond suggested, we can have a sensible discussion on the independence of Scotland without personal insults and racism rearing their ugly head.
It's a topic forced on the population of Scotland, England, the whole UK, even the EU and of interest to millions of individuals spread around the world who are proud of their birth nationality, their parental and family origins or other connections to the land called Scotland.
So who's right is it to determine the future of this land? Who's country is it?
It seems the decision may be limited to "the permanent population" of Scotland, to those only named on the electoral register, although this will have to be altered to include those over 16, if Alex is to have his way. But why only them?
What about all the Scots around the world, members of famous clans, who have emigrated to Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere across the globe, people who often celebrate more of their Scottishness at Highland Gatherings outside Scotland, than the Scots do in the home nation? Why can't they have some say in the future of the land of their fathers?
What about all those 'Scots' who were born in Scotland but moved to England or further afield perhaps purely to get a job, but might at some stage return 'home'? Are they to be denied some say?
What about those who have one Scots parent (or perhaps one Scots grandparent, making them eligible to play for Scotland's Football and Rugby teams) but have lived outside Scotland all their life, why shouldn't they get a vote?
What about individuals with one Scots parent who spent much of their life in Scotland but travelled south for work, but intend to return to Scotland in the future, why shouldn't they have a vote on the future of the land they might be a part of soon?
What about those who might be referred to as English, Welsh, and Northern Irish? Why shouldn't they have a vote on the future of Scotland as it is an issue that will affect them too?
Why should any person in Scotland over the age of say 65 be allowed a vote? Afterall it would take a while to separate Scotland if the vote went that way and a sizeable proportion may not live to see the changes separation might bring?
Why should anyone in Scotland over the age of 16 be allowed to vote, if they might leave Scotland and not be there to enjoy/regret the decision?
Should you give the vote to migrant workers, such as many of the eastern Europeans, who may have the means to live as long as they wish to in Scotland under EU rules, but a significant proportion of whom may move home or to another country reasonably soon? In other words they may have a vote but neither have the "Scottish" heritage or care to worry what the outcome is?
For me, it is a 'conversation' I wish the SNP had never started. As far as I am concerned there are far more important issues in the UK, and Scotland, risks costing us all a fortune and destroying a united nation. For what?
I was born with the nationality of 'British'. It says that on my passport. I live in a nation called the United Kingdom (or Great Britain), a state recognised by the United nations and EU. I've lived in many parts of this country, in England, Scotland (the longest I lived in one place) and in Wales. I currently live in England, but have always hoped to return to Scotland and may still do one day. I have blood roots in that part called Scotland. I'm proud to be British, living in the United Kingdom. Who has the right to split up my country (which is made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) without asking me? Is that democratic?
I like the romantic idea of an independent Scotland to see Rob Roy dashing through the heather, beautiful glens bathed in sunlight or crisp snow, the skirl of the pipes drifting with the wind from a high castle turret. But there it ends.
It's true that local government is a good idea on many levels but it has its limit. It's great to be on your own when times are good and have the freedom to have your own choices. But when the crap hits the fan, boy, it's nice to have a few friends you can lean on. Yes voters are told that Scotland's independent viability is assured based on just two resources, oil and green energy in the form of wind and tidal power. This is so risky. Oil and other sources of energy are not the rare commodities they were only a short time ago. Huge new oil deposits have been found in more accessible parts of the world and risk making North Sea Oil comparitively expensive and difficult to extract. This could mean the demand for North Sea Oil falls once more reducing income and jobs in that industry. Wind power fails to perform and a new report has found that turbines only last half their anticipated life. Tidal power simply hasn't got past the experimental or small scale stage. Should either of these perform poorly, what income has Scotland got to feed a whole nation? Banking? What would have happened if RBS and HBOS had been in an independent Scotland? Could Scotland have afforded to bail them out? It's a clear example where being part of a 'bigger' nation has saved the day.
So according to Alex Salmond Scotland will be a separate member of the EU. Will it? What do we know the EU for? Red tape, beaurocrats and silly rules. Do you think they will change the rules just for Scotland, just like that? No, Scotland will have to reapply. And that can take years and years. The Catalans want independence from the rest of Spain but the EU are desperate to stop Spain from falling apart. It could bring the EU to its knees. So it is likely the EU would refuse Scotland EU membership to encourage the Catalans they are walking into a dead end. And does an independent Scotland really want to join the EU when there are now more countries making noises about leaving it than joining it? Does Scotland want to start paying for failing economies in Greece, Spain, Italy and possibly France soon?
And if Scotland left the United Kingdom and became independent, how would it fare if at some stage the rest of the UK left the EU? Scotland would be so isolated. Costs on all imported goods are likely to rise, even if they came straight across from Holland. The rest of the UK could free itself of so much of the EU red tape and get back to trading more freely. (For decades Europe has been Britain's biggest export market. This changed just a few months ago when Britain started doing more trade to the rest of the world than Europe). Scotland could end up with an even worse neighbour (if they feel that way about England already) sucking up its labour talent, taking business and making it difficult for Scottish business to compete in England. Let's not forget the rest of the UK has nearly 10 times the population of Scotland, a great market for Scottish business that may be closed out to 'foreign' competition from Scotland.
The list of things that would change can go on and on.
My question to the Scots who vote YES (bearing in mind I consider myself British with Scots blood) is, "Why?". Well actually, it isn't. It's actually, "WTF do you think you are doing?"
Forget Bannockburn and that rubbish movie filmed in Ireland with a crass Australian. Have you erased Culloden out of the wonderful kilt flying romantic idea of Scottish history? Look at how England, with Scotland, Wales and Ireland went on to create the greatest empire the world has known. Even today we are stronger together, in a difficult and uncertain world. Why are some Scots prepared to take a risk? For what? Why do they follow a leader who doesn't really care what happens, like Tony Blair? He wants to leave his legacy, get his name in the history books, no matter whatever that means for those that come after him.
I would vote, "No!" to Scottish Independence. But it seems I am denied a vote on the future of my country which is the United Kingdom.
Discuss!
, also knew drink was involved!.However...perhaps if we ask PP VERY nicely he will resume the debate...
When I've been living abroad for long periods doing good deeds, climbing skyscrapers etc, I have always strongly felt that I should not vote in Scottish and UK elections/referenda as it has just seemed morally wrong to do so; also because absence results in lack of understanding of domestic day-to-day issues. It's a kind of respect thing too, respect for those staying in the country to actually make their own decisions. I wish all the exiles currently moaning would show the same respect. KAPPPPOOOOOOW!