Seil Chat

Oh dear.

I'm with Mona - I give up. Perhaps someone else will take up cudgels against your straw men, but I am done here.

....and you just can't see the straw men in the SNP? Alex Salmond is a slippery chancer. The odds are that he will fail to deliver Scottish Independence but in the meantime he seems happy to damage Scotland and the United Kingdom as a price worth paying for his own personal glorification. He appears like another socialist meglomaniac, Tony Blair, happy to deceive, happy to experiment with people's lives, determined only to create his own lasting legacy. Look deep into his eyes and see if you see any integrity in there. Listen to his words. If he ever says, "To be honest, ...." or "If I'm being honest, ..." he's making an exception, implying that whatever he has said at other times might be dishonest. He promises to have "honest and transparent" voting and government so why does he give the impression of being distinctly untransparent now?

It's basic, straightforward, positive, cross-party and nothing to do with Alex Salmond.

http://www.yesscotland.net/video_dennis ... t_scotland

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The Scottish government have agreed to adopt the electoral commission's recommendations in full.

The spending limits look fair, the question is fine (Should Scotland be an independent country? YES / NO)

The Commission also recommended that

the UK and Scottish Governments should clarify what process will follow the referendum in sufficient detail to inform people what will happen if most voters vote ‘Yes’ and what will happen if most voters vote ‘No’

Ball kind of back in Westminster's court there . . . but it looks as though we are all set for a fair and legally binding referendum that is genuinely 'Made in Scotland'.

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And surprise surprise - it is Westminster that is refusing to follow the electoral commission's recommendations.

From Prime Ministers' Questions this morning:

Angus Robertson (SNP)
The Scottish Government has today accepted the v welcome proposals from the Electoral Commission… amongst those recommendations is that the UK Government and Scottish Government should jointly agree to clarify the process that would follow the referendum in either outcome… will he give commitment that he will work with Scottish Government before the referendum?

David Cameron
We will not prenegotiate Scotland's exit from the UK. It is his party that wants to break up the UK and it is for his party to make the case.

the question is fine (Should Scotland be an independent country? YES / NO)

For some this may be misleading. they may already assume Scotland is an independent country. A more honest question might be, " Do you wish Scotland to be an independent country and separate from the UK? YES / NO"

.......and berak up the union only to try to give up more powers and become part of the EU? So Scotland will have a referendum to become a separate country on the basis that it will become a member of the EU whilst moves are afoot for the UK to have a referendum to exit the EU. If Scotland does separate and the rest of the UK leaves the EU (requiring full border controls) do you agree that Scotland could become very isolated?

Pentlandpirate wrote: For some this may be misleading. they may already assume Scotland is an independent country.

Exactly how stupid do you think the Scottish electorate is?

Why, can you see an insult in everything? I wasn't casting dispersions on the Scottish electorate at all. You can give very clear instructions to the electorate (in any country) to put a cross against the candidate of their choice and a significant proportion will put a tick. Does that make them all thick or stupid? I bet if you went out canvassing in Scotland you would find some people who believe Scotland is already it's own country. And I feel the question proposed does not fully indicate the magnitude of the decision that has to be made in choosing YES or NO. I think it fair to point out that some people will think it possible for Scotland to be a separate country and still be part of the UK.

NickB wrote:

Pentlandpirate wrote: For some this may be misleading. they may already assume Scotland is an independent country.

Exactly how stupid do you think the Scottish electorate is?

Very stupid indeed by the looks of it.

Let's face it, anyone who has not heard, seen or read at least some of the arguments on the subject, which will continue with an even higher profile over the next year or so, is unlikely to even know the referendum is taking place. Anyone who has will understand what the referendum is about, I would think.

Is it asking the same thing to say, "Do you want Scotland to separate from the UK? YES / NO "

Pentlandpirate wrote:Is it asking the same thing to say, "Do you want Scotland to separate from the UK? YES / NO "

How is that simpler than the question selected? The simpletons who don't know what an independent country is are are not going to understand what the UK is either. Or probably Scotland come to that.

The simpletons who don't know what an independent country is are are not going to understand what the UK is either. Or probably Scotland come to that.

I suppose you have a point! Not that I would wish to insult any Scots by agreeing with you!

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(This is NOT specifically addressed to PP, but to anyone who is interested)

If you are looking for information but you're not sure where to go below is a list of links to political blogs, newspaper sites etc. I think it is a fairly balanced list - your view may differ. Don't bother moaning at me if you think there are too many pro-independence sites or vice versa - instead feel free to reply and add any useful, informative or entertaining sites to do with the referendum or Scottish politics that you think are missing from the list.

YES Scotland
Official site of the YES campaign.
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Better Together
The official site of the NO campaign.
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Road to 2014 Blog
A blog on referendum related issues by Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon
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Bella Caledonia
Sometimes heavy going, but thoughtful and considered commentary from a multitude of authors and viewpoints
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Holyrood Magazine
Pretty balanced collection of commentary
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Iain Macwhirter
Professional commentary from a Herald and Guardian journalist
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University of Edinburgh Referendum Blog
Informed by University research and beyond, this new blog features commentary on the implications of independence
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Kevin McKenna
Executive editor of the Daily Mail in Scotland, also employed by The Observer as a columnist on Scottish affairs.
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Labour For Independence
Labour Voters For Independence.
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Lallands Peat Worrier
Extremely verbose but very well-informed coverage of constitutional matters from a legal perspective.
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Munguin's Republic
Hard-hitting analysis mixed with lighter features.
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National Collective
The creative movement for Scottish independence.
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Newsnet Scotland
Pro-nationalist site that covers major stories that the mainstream Unionist press chooses to ignore.
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Peter A. Bell
Perth-based pro-independence blogger.
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Referendum 2014
News aggregator for stories about the referendum.
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Scot Goes Pop!
A pro-independence blog by James Kelly - voted one of the UK's top 100 political blogs
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Scotland Tonight
Watch the most recent episodes of the weeknight current-affairs show.
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Moridura's Youtube channel
YouTube channel swiftly and reliably archiving relevant clips from news programmes etc, primarily for the benefit and from the perspective of the nationalist camp.
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The Guardian
The only UK broadsheet devoting serious, semi-informed coverage to Scottish politics.
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The Herald
Formerly reasonably balanced Scottish broadsheet, now firmly entrenched in the Union camp.
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The Scotsman
Often referred to as 'The Hootsmon'. Rabidly pro-Unionist.
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The Reid Foundation
Uncompromising intellectual socialist advocacy.
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Think Scotland
Fairly hardcore-Conservative collection of big-name columnists.
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BBC Scotlandshire
Satirical web site which lampoons BBC Scotland news coverage
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This is NOT specifically addressed to PP, but to anyone who is interested)

..............but it should keep him busy for a few days

Do 'Yes' people only read 'Yes' articles? Plenty material here for people of all opinions. And we're all better informed if we try to understand the viewpoint of those who disagree with us.

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BBC Question Time is from Stirling tonight - 10.35pm

Humza Yousaf will be on the panel, putting forward the positive case for Scotland.

Thought he did pretty well despite Dimblebum's preferential treatment of Michael Moore.

I disagree. And I felt Michael Moore was the most convincing panelist. Time and again it was exposed that there is absolutely no flesh on the bones, no substance to persuade people that voting for an independent Scotland would be good for them. The question was, "Why do you think that the numbers of people who support independence is falling?", and the answer, from all, (including Humza Yousaf eventually) was that they had not put the flesh on the bones.

The trouble is that Alex Salmond has unnecessarily opened a can of worms on an issue that is far more complicated than he could have imagined. All the SNP have done is created more questions than answers. Questions they dare not answer, as every one so far has blown up in their face. The questions on EU membership, NATO membership, Currency, the Army, teh affect on UK defence jobs in Scotland, oil revenues, etc, etc. To simply want to have a vote on Independence and leave it at that is not enough. People want to know what they are going to get if they vote Yes, what they are voting for as, as an imigrant member mentioned. The Yes campaign has failed miserably to convince people why they should support a move for independence.

Yawn.

The Scottish government have given clear and coherent answers to all these alleged 'worms'. You just aren't prepared to listen - and I can't see the point in going over the same old ground. I think you have made your own position quite clear, and it is equally apparent that nothing will change it.

For myself, I would rather discuss the matter with people who will actually have a vote in the referendum.

Yawn.

You need to wake up! Perhaps you can answer the question then, "Why do you think that the numbers of people who support independence is falling?"