Open Letter from Rory Young in today's Oban Times

[MonaLott]

For Maggie & PP re climate change, a pair of Nickers for the knockers!

[Pentlandpirate]

C'mon Herby

(a consequence of climate change we are seeing all too clearly here on Seil)

What climate change?
Aren't we also a little reliant on the Sun for our climate. We've all heard about the unsettled behaviour of the Sun in recent times and seen it via the sunspots and aurora borealis. But apparently there are records of similar patterns, recorded over thousands of years. Are you saying current climactic patterns are unprecedented?

[NickB]

Are you saying current climactic patterns are unpercedented?

No, I think he is saying that they are unprecedented.

The current warming is

a) Much more rapid than anything seen in the historical record

b) Happening at a time when humans exist in huge numbers in a technology-dependent culture

[Pentlandpirate]

Happening at a time when humans exist in huge numbers in a technology-dependent culture

So 2 + 2 + y = z where 2+2 is rising CO2 and melting glaciers + Happening at a time when humans exist in huge numbers in a technology-dependent culture = global warming. End of argument, unless you can possibly imagine that y might be "Why couldn't it be due to something else?"

[mcvrecken]

Well if we’re all just going to enter into a big debate, I’m going to pick up the thread with JO66 again!

“Is anyone else on Seil sick of these yellow signs popping up by white settlers close to the bridge??” – JO66
Just accept this is an inappropriate comment and stop trying to dig your way out of a hole! If you actually read my posts you would understand the context of my comments which were in no way against anyone from any country.

“Who opposed the planning permission for their houses?” – Jo66
This is irrelevant. People need houses to live in. Or are you suggesting we all go and live in a wind turbine?!

“I know every single cow on that farm and all their history.” J066
That’s amazing. You must feel privileged to have such a special relationship with them and be part of their family. Do you talk to them much? How do they feel about the wind farm?

[Herby Dice]

"Why couldn't it be due to something else?"

It could, of course. However, as has been discussed ad nausem in many places, the evidence strongly suggests that it isn't. The mad clamour to find an alternative reason is caused less by scientific endeavour to seek the truth than by a frantic need to find a cause for which we are not to blame and about which we can do nothing. Then we won't need to be inconvenienced by such things as making more efficient use of our energy, seeking alternative means to generate that energy, and (God forbid) having to actually pay for the damage. Better to just suffer the consequences and hold our hands up - "it wasn't me, guv, honest".
Usually in science as in all else, the simplest answer turns out to be the correct one. Just not necessarily the most comfortable answer.

[Pentlandpirate]

Herby, you make a fair point well. However can't you see that it is also very convenient for the energy companies and big business that controls so much of our lives, that we meekly accept the climate change theory that profits the few but hurts the masses. These green policies are affecting our lives now. But for the current natural disasters of tornadoes, floods, droughts, tsunamis, earthquakes, colder winters, warmer summers, earlier seasons, no scientist seems to be prepared to say these are due to global warming. Because the reality is these things have always happened throughout history.

Why does global warming seem to be a 'European' problem? Are the Americans, Chinese, Indians, Africans, South Americans interested? Don't they have scientists too? Could it be that european governments have been infiltrated by leftist greens more than in other parts of the world?

[NickB]

Why does global warming seem to be a 'European' problem? Are the Americans, Chinese, Indians, Africans, South Americans interested? Don't they have scientists too? Could it be that european governments have been infiltrated by leftist greens more than in other parts of the world?

Good grief - just when I think you can't say anything dafter you go and prove me wrong

AFRICA
In 2007, the Network of African Science Academies submitted a joint “statement on sustainability, energy efficiency, and climate change” to the leaders meeting at the G8 Summit in Heiligendamm, Germany:

A consensus, based on current evidence, now exists within the global scientific community that human activities are the main source of climate change and that the burning of fossil fuels is largely responsible for driving this change. The IPCC should be congratulated for the contribution it has made to public understanding of the nexus that exists between energy, climate and sustainability.

The thirteen signatories were the science academies of Cameroon, Ghana, Kenya, Madagascar, Nigeria, Senegal, South Africa, Sudan, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe, as well as the African Academy of Sciences.

AMERICA
As the world's largest general scientific society, the American Association for the Advancement of Science adopted an official statement on climate change in 2006:

The scientific evidence is clear: global climate change caused by human activities is occurring now, and it is a growing threat to society....The pace of change and the evidence of harm have increased markedly over the last five years. The time to control greenhouse gas emissions is now.

AUSTRALIA
The Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society has issued a Statement on Climate Change, wherein they conclude:

Global climate change and global warming are real and observable ... It is highly likely that those human activities that have increased the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere have been largely responsible for the observed warming since 1950. The warming associated with increases in greenhouse gases originating from human activity is called the enhanced greenhouse effect. The atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide has increased by more than 30% since the start of the industrial age and is higher now than at any time in at least the past 650,000 years. This increase is a direct result of burning fossil fuels, broad-scale deforestation and other human activity.

CHINA
At the end of 2011, wind power in the People's Republic of China accounted for 62,000 megawatts (MW) of electricity generating capacity, and China has identified wind power as a key growth component of the country's economy. China aims to “have 100 gigawatts (GW) of on-grid wind power generating capacity by the end of 2015 and to generate 190 billion kilowatt hours (kWh) of wind power annually.

And there are many, many more . . . . I think it is only fair at this juncture to ask what planet you live on, pirate.

[MonaLott]

Pentland, your remarks are getting dafter by the second. The International Panel on Climate Change, set up by the UN, takes input from thousands of independent scientists from nearly 200 countries and has a totally non-European, truly international bias. Furthermore, the consequences of climate change, considerable though they may be for Europe, will be disastrous for many other countries, with sea level rise totally eliminating some and flooding overpopulated coastal zones of others.

[smallpaws]

I think I'm losing the will to live.

[Herby Dice]

These are some non-Europeans who seem to be taking it seriously:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120309/D9TCV4FG0.html

And if you had done any research at all you would have found that it is the energy companies and big business who are arguing most vehemently against anthropogenic climate change - they can see their profits threatened.

[Pentlandpirate]

I don't know why you lot haven't all started building an Ark already. You all sound absolutely terrified! You may consider me mad but once I was criticised for not having a more 'enquiring nature'. It means that now I tend to look at things from a different angle so that I don't become one of life's sheep gullibly following the flock without questioning things. It's only those who test the limits who further mankind. And I'm far from being alone in what I think. You only have to read some of Nigel Lawson's book to understand his reasonable arguments why global warming theories should be challenged. Global warming remains a theory, not a proven reality.

[NickB]

.
Nigel Lawson is not a scientist, his degree was in philosophy, politics and economics - and he has considerable interests in the fossil fuel industry.

Why should we believe him over the conclusions of the IPCC, based on research carried out by thousands of scientists from all over the world?

[MonaLott]

"Terrified" - you must be joking. PP, you're the one with the intense illogical phobias, mainly of the scientific truth. You must surely be embarrassed to quote Nigel Lawson as a counterbalance to thousands of climate science experts on the IPCC? Give us peace!

[Pentlandpirate]

Yes, but do you believe everything you read in a left-wing paper like the Guardian?

If you read Lawson's book, he questions the views of the 'warmers' in the same way they question his interests. The trouble with global warming is, no one knows all the facts, no one has the proof. Be honest and admit that!

We may all be victims of a very expensive con based on flawed thories of something that never actually happens. It is a mistake to not try to establish if the explanation lies elsewhere. Every generation has its Doomsday scenario, but can anyone tell me which ones actually happened?

[MonaLott]

Don't read the Guardian, don't believe an old fogey economist as an expert climatologist and do trust international science. And I find your contributions here to be so sad.

[Herby Dice]

Global warming remains a theory, not a proven reality.

Herein lies a problem faced largely by the denier community, one of understanding of how science works. I hear the same argument about evolution - "it's only a theory, like the flat earth theory".
No, PP, global warming and climate change (the preferred term, although global averages get warmer, some places as a consequence get colder, so to save confusion amongst the easily confused we prefer the latter term) iteslf is not a theory. it is an established experimental observation. The theory comes in when we try to ascertain the cause.

What you oppose, PP, is the anthropogenic theory of climate change. At least, I hope that is what you oppose. If you actually oppose the fact of climate change, you are an idiot who merits no further engagement.

[NickB]

We may all be victims of a very expensive con based on flawed thories of something that never actually happens.

That's right pirate. Thousands and thousands of climate scientists on modest salaries that are largely independent of their specific research topics are all in a huge global conspiracy to make people like Nigel Lawson and the Koch brothers poorer.

Have you no grip on reality whatsoever?

[Gavin Rae]

Seems to be a lot of 'global heat' being generated !!!

Very interested in this subject and comments to date

however as an observer !!

Open up another thread as its seems to have moved on considerably from the windfarm issue !!!

Snoman

[Pentlandpirate]

Snoman. This is about the windfarm issue. I can see from above comments that the majority on this thread have talked themselves into being in favour of voting FOR the windfarm as the only course of action left to save them from the effects of perceived climate change.

(BTW it should be possible to have a reasonable discussion without the moderator calling you an idiot but still). To clarify my position as the village idiot, I accept that the earths temperature has risen very slightly but I do not accept that this can only be due to Man's activity on earth. And I do not see anything that offers real evidence that it is anything other than a temporary blip. Herby, you say,

global warming and climate change itself is not a theory. It is an established experimental observation

. No it isn't. They have made observations that suggest climate change could happen if the trends continue, but so far there isn't sufficient data to say our climate has reached the point where it has changed. And if the evidence was so overwhelming why don't all scientists agree? Who are these idiot scientists?

Anyhow, this is what idiots enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzixp8s4pyg