Seil Chat

My point is fairly simple - a vessel engaged in fishing or any 'work' at sea shouldn't be second guessed by amateur sailors (even if they have passes a stiff exam) who may 'think' they know what it's doing but rather given the respect it deserves and a wide safe berth.

Yes Eric, I wholly agree, but you are still missing my point. No-one is arguing that the fishing vessel engaged in fishing has right of way over a yacht at all times.

Everyone I know who sails knows this and is aware that for obvious reasons fishing vessels should not just be given way to but should be given a wide berth, and we all try to do so. However, if the fishing vessel suddenly turns and comes straight at you at eight or nine knots and you are making five knots then your options are limited. You alter course, all seems well for a while then oh my god the fishing vessel alters course again and is coming hell for leather straight for you - except this time it is closer. You alter, and bu**er me it does the same thing again. If - as it appears rightly or wrongly - you are deliberately pursued by a faster vessel then there is no way you can give it a wide berth, is there?

Now, this scenario may seem unlikely, but trust me it has happened many times to me in UK, Irish and international waters. Sods law says it is at the point of closest approach that you, the fisherman, glance out of the window and shout 'bl**dy maniac'. It may appear to you that the yacht has stood on - which is always wrong, no-one is arguing about that - wheras in actual fact they have altered course repeatedly but to no avail; you, the fishing vessel, have for one reason or another altered course to continue to close the gap in spite of their best efforts to avoid you.

It really would help if fishermen could sometimes see this from the other vessel's point of view. I hope the above scenario illustrates how a close approach or near miss can come about in spite of the yacht's best attempts to give you a wide berth.

(Or do you mean by 'a wide berth' 'just keep off our bl**dy sea' ?

- NickB

Don't worry Nick. As I've already said the fishing boats don't get it all their own way. When I was at sea they always got out of our way, or suffered the consequences.
..size definitely matters! http://www.flickr.com/photos/pentlandpirate/1844716619/

I can see we've reached a bit of an impasse Nick.

No one's for a minute suggesting 'keep off our bl**dy sea' - I do hope you've conceded the VHF point though.

Perhaps you've been in some tight situations and I can see your point of view. But a vessel engaged in shooting gear may also have limited options - Imagine static gear ( long lines, creels, or nets' going over the side of the vessel - the fishing boat may not be able to alter course as do to so would risk the gear fouling the vessel. On top of that you have to factor in both wind, tide and sea state.

...or you could be right all fishing boats are out to get you and are probably skippered by red carded forum members to boot.

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Eric, I must emphasise again that I am well aware that a fishing vessel engaged in fishing may well not be able to alter course, and that for her to do so could endanger gear, crew or boat.

That is not what I am talking about, however. I am talking about fishing vessels which for whatever reason make frequent and dramatic course alterations - by 90deg or more - in the course of their fishing activities.

Is is these sudden, unannounced and dramatic course alterations that can make keeping clear a difficult task. There is nothing a yacht can do to take account of this sort of rapid unannounced and unpredictable manoevering. If a lookout is not being maintained on the fishing vessel - for whatever reason - then a near miss or collision is possible in which the yacht has followed the rules, endeavoured to keep clear and is entirely blameless as it has in effect been run down by a faster vessel manoevering unpredictably.

It happens - more often than it would appear the fishing fraternity realise. Your assumption is that every time a yacht comes closer to you than you would like they have failed in their opbligation to keep clear under the IRPCS. My contention is that the yacht may have made every conceivable effort to keep clear but your vesel has in the course of her fishing activities manoevered directly into the yacht's path. The yacht may well be the slower vessel, in which case she will eventually be unable to get out of your way if you consistently make course changes that take your vessel towards the yacht. (Irrespective of the direction she may be heading in).

Sometimes the end result is a stern chase, in which case the fishing vessel becomes the overtaking vessel and the yacht is relieved of her responsibility to keep clear. You would probably still be swearing at the bl**dy WAFIs for getting in your way - we can't win.

I am not sure what your VHF point was exactly, but I have found all watch officers I have spoken to speak adequate English - it is the general language used worldwide by ship to shore stations after all.

As far as using VHF to help avoid a collision goes, let me give you one example:

Crossing the Biscay shipping lanes at an oblique angle in poor vis and big waves we passed a block of flats doing over 20 knots in the opposite direction at a distance of between half a mile and a mile. I called them up on ch16 to enquire if they had seen us on radar. They had not, but confirmed that they had us visually now. I asked if there was any other traffic nearby that would pass close to us. They replied that there was a vessel five miles behind them that would pass very close, and they gave us the name of that vessel.

Ten minutes later we saw another vessel bows-on to us and I called them up by name on the VHF, said we had them visually directly on the bow and that we were going to alter course to starboard. They replied that they would also alter to starboard and we passed with a separation of a bit over half a mile. Once abeam I asked this vessel if they had us on radar, and again the answer was no but they had us visually now we were abeam. They said it was an interesting lesson.

Without the VHF call and with only our own avoiding action we would have passed very much closer to the ship, with no chance of getting out of the way should she make a sudden course change. The watch officer thanked us for the call.

Now, if that is bad seamanship in your book then so be it . . . but I will continue to call vessels in close proximity when I believe it will be helpful for both parties involved. I do not thingk that you can make sweeping generalisations about ship to ship calls on the VHF. I will however refrain from calling fishing vessels, as they obviously don't want to speak to yachties . . .

What I resent most of all about this is the general reference to 'amateurs' and the assumption that someone who puts out a line of creels in the same local area day after day is automatically a better seaman than someone skippering a yacht who may have many tens of thousands of sea miles under their keel experienced in all sorts of waters and conditions.

(Not that I am putting you in the first category or indeed myself in the second category - the above was not meant as a personal comment, but as a general observation generated by the overall tone of your posts)

I have to say though that this is more interesting tonight than the sailing forum I also run . . . but don't worry the rest of you, I won't put any more sailing posts up here

- NickB

Today's prize goes to Eric for keeping his messages short and interesting...........

Today's prize goes to Eric for keeping his messages short and interesting...........

And today's wooden spoon for posting just for the sake of it goes to Spiderman.



You don't have to read this thread Spidey, and indeed as you have no interest in yachting I cannot imagine why you are. Why don't you go and contribute to the gardening thread instead?

- NickB

We Norse vikings are good fishermans, Ja - It didn't take you too long to take the bait Nick?????????

What I resent most of all about this is the general reference to 'amateurs' and the assumption that someone who puts out a line of creels in the same local area day after day is automatically a better seaman than someone skippering a yacht who may have many tens of thousands of sea miles under their keel experienced in all sorts of waters and conditions.

Calm down Nick - You've missed the metaphorical boat again. Your taking my words and twisting them to suit your own ends. No one's said that have they now ???

What I'm saying is ....A fisherman is a man who fishes - that is his profession, - he is therefore a professional - By definition an amateur sailor is one who does not make his living from or on the sea - This would include most yachtie types unless they provide training or skippered charters I thinks?.

It is you, not I that is making assumptions as to the seamanship abilities or otherwise.

What is today's prize Spidey???

Spiderman....yes, at last a serious discussion! You can't knock it!

Nick I agree. Use ch 16 to call up other vessels and establish their intentions, makes alot of sense and I've seen that done all over the world.

And fishing boats are a problem due to the nature of their work. Not least are they darting and changing direction but at say 6 miles or more when a bigger ship needs to know what to do, it can be impossible to determine what sort of fishing boat and what sort of gear he may be using. A few baskets in the rigging, a tatty flag or a cluster of small lights can be very hard, if not impossible to identify at range.

Erik, for someone who fishes for a living that may make it his profession. But most yachties are professionals in that they are professionally qualified to navigate. In the same way a fisherman may look down on a yachtie, why should the foreign going navigator, who is qualified to an even higher degree not look down on the fisherman?

I think it true that as with many rules and laws they lag behind the real world. The abilitities, type and activities of vessels has changed and the rules need updating to take more account of the reality of navigation today.

Nick when you were feeling your way around in the fog in the Bay of Biscay, this was us floating around in the sky above. All we could see were the mast tops of the bigger fishing boats. Judging by their courses they didn't even know we were there http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/s ... puser/8383

Nick, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4OmgnHTOPw - Calm down, take a bit of ribbing occasionaly without resorting to rudeness and, if someone else thinks your messages are a bit wordy, live with it pleasantly. This is the second time in a week, you've lost your little rag. Something troubling you? Lighten up!

Eric, share your prize with Bjorn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0LhMMSSilo

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My rag is as big as the next man's, you patronising octopod.

- N

Your knowledge of computing appears to be on a par with your social skills.

Quote:
Just shove in a wee spyware prog if you're still not convinced.

- meaningless drivel. Funny, when a person talks bo**ocks about something you know something about it leads one to suspect that perhaps everything that person says is bo**ocks.

Now take a telling - if you continue to be unpleasant to people you will simply vanish from this forum. There won't be another warning.



This thread is now closed - no more posts are possible. It will hopefully sink into obscurity fairly quickly.

- NickB
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Hey Nick, You're patronising powers and rag are bigger than most on recent evidence!!

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PP - There is nothing unclear in the "Rules of the Road" ...but if you feel you can update them to incorporate the use of VHF radios in collision situations lets hear them then???? I sure the MCA would be most grateful too!

the rules need updating to take more account of the reality of navigation today.

Navigation today isn't any different today than it was yesterday, or a decade ago - all the rules still apply.

But I like a good laugh too so let's hear your "New Improved Rules of the Road Lite"

Hello sailor!!

And Nick, let me add that, when sailing around here, I have found both yachties and fishermen to be both correct and friendly. But I nearly got kippered by a flying gin-palace from Craobh which had the throttle full open and no-one on deck or in the cockpit. Frightening!

And who is that d*ck that jetskis across Balvicar Bay every summer??

Incidentally, I hate gardening!!

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I am afraid I agree with Eric, P . . . the IRPCS are very clear and apply to every situation. This is one case where rules are not for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools but apply to and should be followed by all vessels navigating waters to which they apply.

My argument with Eric was not about the relevance of the rules or whether or not they should be followed. My contention was that the actions of fishing vessels sometimes make it very difficult for other vessels to comply with the rules in spite of their best efforts.

I also agree with Eric that VHF should not be seen as a primary anti-collision aid - but I will defend its use in circumstances where it is an aid to safety rather than a possible source of confusion. The prudent navigator will be able to tell the difference, and there is no need for the Rules to mention VHF - so they don't.

- NickB

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when sailing around here, I have found both yachties and fishermen to be both correct and friendly

Ditto. One of the many things I like about this place is that the moorings association is composed of a mixture of pleasure boaters and fishermen who all get on together - a situation that is unimaginable in some parts of the UK.

As with all of humankind there are quite a few obnoxious yachties I am afraid - but most of them are a long way away from here on the Solent. The majority of those plying the waters round here under sail are a reasonable bunch. (Just watch out for the ones flying a blue ensign - and gin palaces of any description of course)

- NickB

You seem to be carrying some baggage from your days in the Solent Nick?