Why is Salmond celebrating our humiliation ?

[PentlandPirate II]

No, that's what Alex Salmond says they would like to use, now that he knows he can't assume he can use the euro either. He's making an awful hash of this independence thing going round and round in circles looking for anyway to avoid a dead end. After decades of supposedly working towards independence he's eventually discovering the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

I'm sure Bannockburn 2014 will be a great occasion but I'll be glad when the dust has settled after Culloden 2014 five months later.

[NickB]

No, that's what Alex Salmond says they would like to use, now that he knows he can't assume he can use the euro either. He's making an awful hash of this independence thing going round and round in circles looking for anyway to avoid a dead end. After decades of supposedly working towards independence he's eventually discovering the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

I'm sure Bannockburn 2014 will be a great occasion but I'll be glad when the dust has settled after Culloden 2014 five months later.

What exactly do Bannockburn and Culloden have to do with the currency issue?

Which part of 'Scotland will be using the pound after independence' do you not understand?

[longshanks]

Perhaps you would care to give the story a little more credence by naming these 'top contract lawyers' ?

Andrew Sleigh, head of corporate and commercial law at law firm Levy & McRae for starters. I'll email The Times and The Telegraph for the names of their quoted "leading corporate lawyers"

For an excellent deconstruction of this daft wee story in the Record may I recommend this article ?

Ah. Here we have George Gebbie (still only a Junior Counsel having qualified way back in 1987), a leading member of the YeSNP front "Business For Scotland", whose expertise is not contract law but....

http://www.blackchambers.co.uk/index.ph ... rge-gebbie

Appeals
Fraud
Human Rights and Devolution Issues
Money Laundering
Murder and Homicide
Offences under drugs legislation
Offences under firearms legislation
Offences under road traffic legislation
Proceeds of Crime
Sexual Offences
Terrorism

who starts his Wings piece with “I’m a lawyer and many years ago worked for the Scottish Office drafting ‘exchange cover’ contracts to deal with fluctuations in the value of currencies between parties from different countries......." (wholly different to the contract law under debate.

And you expect us to give his "rebuttal" the slightest credence ? Come on !

Not to mention it was published on the rather nasty anti-British "Wings Over Scotland" forum, run by a chap living in Bath who claims to be a "Rev", and inhabited by the lowlife bitter no-lives known us cybernats.

[PentlandPirate II]

What exactly do Bannockburn and Culloden have to do with the currency issue

Not a lot. But then you must be a little embarrassed that they make such a big fuss about a battle 700 years ago when a Scots Army defeated the English forces, once. Since when has it become customary to celebrate the 700th anniversary of anything? The occasion, despite what some say, is clearly being used to try to create support for the Yes Campaign. Has anyone (apart from me) suggested there should be a celebration of that other momentous battle in Scotland at Culloden? It's pretty tasteless. And if Britain took a day off to celebrate a battle we won, we would never do a day's work.

Which part of 'Scotland will be using the pound after independence' do you not understand?

All of it actually. You know that do you, or do you just think (hope) that? And do you believe everything Alex Salmond says?

[NickB]

What exactly do Bannockburn and Culloden have to do with the currency issue

Not a lot. But then you must be a little embarrassed that they make such a big fuss about a battle 700 years ago when a Scots Army defeated the English forces, once. Since when has it become customary to celebrate the 700th anniversary of anything? The occasion, despite what some say, is clearly being used to try to create support for the Yes Campaign. Has anyone (apart from me) suggested there should be a celebration of that other momentous battle in Scotland at Culloden? It's pretty tasteless. And if Britain took a day off to celebrate a battle we won, we would never do a day's work.

I believe we are having a huge celebration to mark the centenary of the start of WW1 in August. Not the end of it, the start of it. The start of the most pointless, brutal war in our history. Do you think that is sensible? Some people have suggested that that is pretty tasteless, and some cynics have even dared to suggest that it will be used by the Westminster government as a huge flag-waving exercise designed to stir up British nationalism in an attempt to influence the referendum result.

Bannockburn on the other hand is celebrated every year. I was not aware though that the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn was a public holiday in Scotland as you seem to be suggesting. Are you sure about that?

[longshanks]

I believe we are having a huge celebration to mark the centenary of the start of WW1 in August. Not the end of it, the start of it.

Huge Celebration ? Huge Celebration ?

No NB.........its a COMMEMORATION.

.....and the Commemoration runs for each of the four years (not just the start) of the horrors, sacrifices, bravery, camaraderie etc of The Great War; LEST WE FORGET.

To misrepresent it as a "huge celebration"; well I'll give you the benefit and assume you inadvertently chose the wrong words. Easily done I suppose.

We would dishonour our forbears if we did not commemorate that time in the lives and deaths.

EDIT: By the way I notice the cybernats at WingsOverScotland deliberately choose to deride the upcoming commemorations. Nasty.

[PentlandPirate II]

I don't think anyone has suggested they will mark the 100th anniversary of the start of WW1 as a celebration. And Britain did not start WW1. We went to help the defence of other nations being attacked by the Germans. The point of marking the start of the war is both a memorial to the millions lost, but also seen as being an opportunity to inform the generations that came after it of how terrible it was, and how we should strive to prevent it in the future (if only we had had the atom bomb in 1914 we could have stopped it in days and saved millions). It will commemorate the sacrifice men from all parts of the Commonwealth came together with a common purpose to fight off the aggressor and protect our nation and the values we hold dear to us. It was only pulling together that allowed us to overcome that enemy, twice. On our own we probably would not have made it. I think those Scots who died would wonder why on earth, after everything they suffered, a small part of the country would want to pull it apart. Dare I suggest they would feel insulted.

[NickB]

.
I hope it is a commemoration and not a propaganda exercise. I see Gove has already been accused of this :

WW1 Centenary: Blackadder A War Crime?

. . . and as if that wasn't enough, apparently men in Glasgow see is as an attempt to influence the referendum result :

Why Glasgow men do not want to celebrate WW1

It's certainly true that Scotland has a huge historical stake in WW1 - over 26 per cent of Scottish servicemen died, compared with a UK figure of just 11 per cent.

[PentlandPirate II]

Commemorating WWI is very pertinent. As the report shows there is massive ignorance of the history of WW1. It is not propaganda. People have a little bit more respect for the sacrifice British soldiers made in WW1 once they know the facts. Dismissing it as being of no consequence is deeply insulting to those who fought and died.

Actually one of my photos is being used for the closing shot of a film being made as part of the WW1 commemorations, see http://waitingfordawnfilm.blogspot.co.uk/ I'm supposed to be going to the first screening in a few weeks.

[longshanks]

It's certainly true that Scotland has a huge historical stake in WW1 - over 26 per cent of Scottish servicemen died, compared with a UK figure of just 11 per cent.

Yes. Very true and stark figures indeed. I feel them strongly as someone who has served in the British Army and with a Father who fought throughout 39-45 in a Scottish Regiment.

The contrast takes a little understanding and, avoiding even going near the deliberate disrespectful interpretation of them employed by the cybernats, will precis the latest academic conclusion as to why the contrast is such.

# The growth of the cash economy (as opposed to subsistence living) in the 1700s, harsh penalties, religious persecution, upper-class greed, the need for agricultural families to move on the females and younger sons . . . . . . . . all these played a part - as they did in other largely rural economies around the world. In Scotland, as in Ireland, the percentage affected by these factors was relatively higher than in England. In Ireland, they, too, went a -soldiering but, more often, went away. In Scotland, they ended up as the back-bone of British assault troops. They certainly joined in disproportionately larger numbers to their population bases, probably for economic and cultural reasons and therefore died in disproportionately higher numbers.

# The data for Scotland indicates we raised a far higher number of battalions per head of 10,000 population [1.45 v 0.78 Eng & Wales] so it stands to reason to expect to see higher casualty rates per 10,000 population. After conscription in 1916 the recruiting percentages/population would have been roughly equal. The fact that proportionally more Scots volunteered between 1914 and 1916 is the source of the 'high' casualty figures.

# Two of the major set piece battles, Loos and Arras, had a high percentage of Scots in the assault battalions. Arras in particular was a very expensive battle with a high casualty rate.

Most right minded folk feel very strongly that we should commemorate the sacrifices, suffering, bravery and unity of purpose of our forbears LEST WE FORGET.

I pray the cybernats don't attempt to disrupt the sombre events for ill-judged political purposes and don't try to spread their nasty misinterpretation of the reason for our high casualty rate.

[PentlandPirate II]

Apart from commemorating the sacrifice all those men made in WW1 it is important the lessons of history are learnt and passed on from generation to generation to minimise the risk of its horrors being repeated. We are now at a point where the younger generations will never know anyone who lived in that time and risk growing up totally ignorant of what happened (as is glaringly obvious already). Whilst some would say they are peace loving peoples, berating governments that go to war to oppose enemies of freedom, they are happy to celebrate the Battle of Bannockburn whilst dissing the commemoration of thousands of dead Scottish soldiers as propaganda.

This whole referendum matter, forced by the SNP, has created an environment of divisive nastiness, that would pain those soldiers who fought and died so that we might have a future.

[NickB]

This whole referendum matter, forced by the SNP, has created an environment of divisive nastiness, that would pain those soldiers who fought and died so that we might have a future.

Yes yes, let's not rock the happy Unionist boat eh?

The will of the Scottish people is set towards self-determination. This has been obvious since the referendum of 1979.

Like it or not, independence is coming. If not this year, then certainly in my childrens' lifetimes.

[PentlandPirate II]

You are talking just like Alex Salmond. There is absolutely no reason why independence has to come.

[NickB]

You are talking just like Alex Salmond

And you are talking like someone who cares nothing for Scotland or democracy.

[PentlandPirate II]

You must be trying to goad me into something. Am I allowed to say I find that insulting and wrong? Scotland is part of my home. If I wasn't so passionate about preserving it I wouldn't be debating here. And there's not much that's democratic about a minority in my country (which is the UK, which is made up of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales) being given the opportunity to break up my home.

[NickB]

You must be trying to goad me into something. Am I allowed to say I find that insulting and wrong? Scotland is part of my home. If I wasn't so passionate about preserving it I wouldn't be debating here. And there's not much that's democratic about a minority in my country (which is the UK, which is made up of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales) being given the opportunity to break up my home.

Scotland is not 'part of your home'. It is a different country with its own parliament and judiciary.

If you cared enough about this issue you would move up here so you could have a vote.

[PentlandPirate II]

My passport says United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. What does yours say?

Yes, just as soon as I can afford to give up my current job, I hope to move up there, but it won't be until after the referendum but probably before independence. I've been told there is a way I can vote without moving up there and await details.

[PentlandPirate II]

Bump, bump.