Seil Chat

Well, throwing excrement filled plastic bags into the sea for one. See the MacGregor brothers for details, they are approachable – if approached in the right way…

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Some interesting if strange replies.

Don't know who throws excrement-filled plastic bags into the water . . . but it is true that yachties have toilets that flush directly into the marine environment, although holding tanks are becoming more common. As most of the island's c**p has gone directly into the sea until recently I wouldn't have thought that that was much of an issue . . . but I probably wouldn't eat any shellfish I found in Puilladobhrain.

Re. KT's 'caravans' comment - certainly down on the Solent, and to a certain extent on the Clyde - but most yachtsmen who sail in local waters are fairly adventurous and as there are no marinas or pontoons once you are N. of Tobermory they have to be a little intrepid and self sufficient.

As for ColRegs (rules of the road or whatever you choose to call them) - well, I would hazard that most yachties have a better idea of these than the average fisherman (ducks for cover). I can still remember them when three sheets to the wind anyway

Having defended my fellow yachties, let me also say that owning a yacht does not make you a good guy, any more than owning a jetski makes you a total w**ker (although perhaps the correlation is closer here).

Sadly there are plenty of yachties who are total plonkers - but fortunately for us most of them are busy shouting at each other in the Solent, and don't bother us much around here.

- NickB

It's a pity Section II Rule 18 seems to be omitted from the local yachtie's copy of the IRPCS.

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I assume you mean :

A sailing vessel under way shall keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command;

(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;

(iii)a vessel engaged in fishing;

And that in particular you are referring to (iii)

Most skippers I know are only too aware of the need to keep out of the way of fishing vessels and make every effort to do so. However, if I may be permitted to make a few observations:

a) It is not always easy to do so because the behaviour of fishing vessels is in no way predictable. They rarely keep to a constant course as they may be following the fish finder or laying pots in a pattern which is familiar to them but which the yacht cannot be expected to guess.

b) Yachts under sail may constrained in their ability to manoevre. An example - off SW Ireland we were directed round the stern of a fishing boat 'minding' a net over a mile long. The shoreward side of the net - and the guard boat - were less than 100m off the foot of cliffs with a 3m swell breaking on them. We were beating to windward in 25 knots and the passage between the fishing boat and the cliff was directly into wind. Luckily our rather unreliable old Volvo started on request and we motored through with the sails flapping uselessly while we gave a friendly wave. I have no idea whether or not the fisherman understood the risk he was asking the yacht to take, but a little understanding of the constraints on a sailing yacht might make for less frustration.

c) The fact that fishing boats generally leave their fishing day signs up permanently whether they are fishing or not tends to make yacht skippers - rightly or wrongly - sceptical about fishing vessels' regards for the ColRegs.

d) Finally - remember that virtually all yachts maintain a listening watch on Ch16 and if you are worried about any potential conflict of interests they will be delighted to talk to you and alter course as requested.

(Oh yes, and no chat or swearing on Ch16 please )

- NickB

there was yachties in the T n T tonight.....they weren't wearing yellow wellies!!!

Nick,

Rules of the road? It’s best to assume no one will give way! For example I was on a 340,000 dwt tanker in ballast and at anchor for a month off Rotterdam, when early one morning a yacht came over the horizon and sailed straight for us. We were immobile, and although the yacht sailed straight for us, no one thought it unusual. After all a tanker over 1200ft long (nearly quarter of a mile long) and 200ft wide is a fairly impressive sight and yachties often came for a closer look. But this one came nearer, and nearer………and nearer until he sailed straight in to the ship’s side. Moments later a naked individual leapt on deck, and seeing a black steel wall towering over him looked up to the ship’s bridge wing 175 feet above him. Seeing the small crowd peering down he shook his fist and shouted his obscenities before pushing off to fix his shattered fibreglass and ego.

But pushing through the Pacific south of Japan, the whole horizon would blaze at night with the lights of a fishing fleet. Looking at radar, the screen filled from side to side with the echoes from hundreds of boats. It was impossible for us to navigate and give way to so many boats that weaved and changed their course. It could take us 6 miles to crash-stop in a straight line and if we hadn’t decided which way to alter course at 12 miles from an on coming ship, things were ‘too tight’. Our policy was to just to head right through the middle of a fishing fleet on our course. They could get out of our way, and if they didn’t, well,(sorry Nick!) they were just things that went bump in the night!

Hey Ho

Steam should always give way to sail. a lovely theory but can you really stop 32000 tonnes inside 1/2 mile perhaps education is the answer.

Teaching some tanker crews to read could be good.and teaching sail boat owners to think could be even better.

Fishermen dont know or care as a rule but should be better than they are.

Teddy
Well why not upset everyone??

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Well why not upset everyone??

Job well done I'd say Teddy . . .

Can we at least agree that it should be legal to shoot jetski drivers (sorry, PWC operators) on sight?

- NickB

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It’s best to assume no one will give way!

P, this can be a dangerous assumption.

Once a risk of collision exists it is the duty of the stand-on vessel (as defined in the IRPCS) to maintain its course and speed. If it doesn't then the give way vessel cannot plan and execute a safe course alteration.

Big ships have radar plotters and can make a course alteration of just a couple of degrees that a yacht might not notice for some time. If the yacht then decides to 'give way' (even though required to stand on by the IRPCS) then they may have inadvertantly re-established the risk of collision - particularly if their manoever involved a turn to port (don't do it . . .)

And - it is our experience that most ships in open water do obey the IRPCS and give way to sailing vessels as a matter of course, usually in plenty of time with a small course alteration at a distance of around three miles.

The secret is defensive sailing. THis means that you never get yourself in a situation where a risk of collision exists, which in practical terms with big ships means taking clear avoiding action at a distance of no less than two to three miles.

Once you are inside this sort of radius giving way when it is not your duty to do so could precipitate a collision, in the same way as two people trying to step round each other on the pavement then walking straight into each other.

One final caveat - it is of course your duty to take all possible action to avoid a collision, including altering course even if you are the stand-on vessel. So - the times to give way are when no danger exists (2 - 3 miles away as a rule of thumb in most situations) or when there is a very clear and present danger and only your action can avert a collision. In between these two limits it is safer to obey the IRPCS and stand on.

The availability of cheap AIS 'radar' devices for yachts means that avoiding vessels over 300 tons - in European waters at least - has become very much easier, and I would recommend anyone sailing in areas of heavy shipping to fit one. At under £300 it could be a lifesaver, as it not only shows you when a danger of collision exists but also identifies hte vessel so you can call them up on the VHF if there is doubt as to whether or not thay are aware of you and the situation.

We had a few hairy moments sailing down the Portuguese coast in thick fog then again coming back across Biscay from N. Spain in poor visibility, and will not be making that trip again without fitting an AIS receiver. The odd encounter with the Isle of Mull coming in and out of Oban Bay is the worst we usually have to face in home waters though

- NickB

Yes, Nick the analagy of two people walking towards each other on a pavement is a good one (why doesn't the government make a rule saying you have to walk to the left, as with cars?)

Vessels will often not give way when the Rules require them to because it can force them into a complicated manoeuvre and collision avoidance could be more easily effected by the other vessel. After all the Rules do not make allowances for bits of sticky out land and obstructions. And they also do not allow for people falling asleep on the job.

After all the Rules do not make allowances for bits of sticky out land and obstructions.

Well, they sort of do . . . yachts (and indeed fishing vessels) must give way to vessels constrained by their draft or manoevering with difficulty, which covers most of these situations.

However, point taken - I was referring to open water situations in the post above.

- NickB

longshanks wrote:the yellow booted yachties which pollute our island all seem to have accents which come from the other side of our Roman wall and, thus, little appreciation for the reality of this island.

I'd have thought the yacht types would have fitted in very well with the prevalent culture and accents on Seil. That's the reality.

Sorry S Kerr

but I will disagree.
Reguardless of your accent address or parentage there are very few so insular that they have not some scots irish english or welsh blood in their ancestry.

sod the wall look at the person

Teddy

I'd have thought the yacht types would have fitted in very well with the prevalent culture and accents on Seil. That's the reality.

Most of our sailing friends are Scots. Scotland has a long and very distinguished yachting tradition, and Musto-clad visitors to the T&T are very likely to have Scots accents; apart from anything else the sailing up here is a little too robust for our softer Solent cousins.

However, it is generally true that there are a lot of Southern accents around and have been for some considerable time, both here and throughout the West Highlands.

Similarly, the rest of the world is full of Scots and usually the rest of the world is quite pleased to have them.

The view of sailors and/or people with English accents as pollution is too absurd to take issue with. It is Longshanks who seems to have no grasp of reality . . . harking back to a non-existent 'Golden Age' and conveniently forgetting that it was the locals who sold their land and property to incomers to make a fast buck or to enable them to escape to the cities or the Costas.

Fortunately all the real locals we know on Seil are very tolerant of and friendly towards incomers, ferryloupers, blow-ins or whatever you want to call them. I rather suspect that Longshanks is himself a fairly recent arrival, someone who may originally have been from Seil but who has in fact spent much of his life South of that Roman wall he seems to have such respect for.

Now he has come back to find that things have changed while he was away. Well, Mr. Shanks will just have to wake up and smell the coffee . . . what exactly does he contribute to the community economically and culturally I wonder, that gives him the right to such overblown arrogance?

- NickB

I'm sick of statements like that, as a seafarer myself we always treat people with courtesy and respect.

Isn't it true that alot of Scots try very hard to imitate being English

How's the bulimia JP?

They rarely keep to a constant course as they may be following the fish finder or laying pots in a pattern which is familiar to them but which the yacht cannot be expected to guess.

Which is precisely WHY you should follow Section II Rule 18 (iii)

Finally - remember that virtually all yachts maintain a listening watch on Ch16 and if you are worried about any potential conflict of interests they will be delighted to talk to you and alter course as requested.

Shame the MCA don't see it that way....and an Admiralty Judge with not inconsiderable experience in trying collision cases said this:

"I must repeat, in the hope that it will achieve some publicity, what I have said on previous occasions, that any attempt to use VHF to agree the manner of passing is fraught with the danger of misunderstanding. Marine superintendents would be well-advised to prohibit such use of VHF radio and to instruct their officers to comply with the Collision Regulations."

Yachts under sail may constrained in their ability to manoevre

Agreed Nick - But that doesn't negate the rules - if anything you should be aware of your vessel's limitations and Rules Part B - 5, 6 & 7 should prevent you from being in that situation.

and at the risk of being pedantic you stated

Yachts under sail may constrained in their ability to manoevre

The "Rules" see it differently.....

The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

Oh ....and Nick B ...VHF radios are not for discussing the whereabouts, or otherwise of last night's Fois Gras either.....As was heard last week in a stretch of sea not too far away.

Quote:
They rarely keep to a constant course as they may be following the fish finder or laying pots in a pattern which is familiar to them but which the yacht cannot be expected to guess.


Which is precisely WHY you should follow Section II Rule 18 (iii)

Eric, you are either being obtuse here or missing my point. Many times we have altered course to pass well clear of a fishing vessel only to have her suddenly alter course herself and come straight for us. Fair enough, so we alter again, and the same thing happens. This can happen over and over again, often to the point where the two vessels pass unacceptably close with the poor yacht skipper thinking he is about to be deliberately run down in spite of his best efforts to comply with the IRPCS. If you think this is acceptable seamanship on the part of the fishing vessel then I am afraid we will have to differ on this . . . if you cannot bear to take your eyes off the fish finder then you should remember that all vessels, whether engaged in fishing or not, are required to keep an adequate lookout at all times.

As for the use of VHF as a collision avoidance device - again, you are reading meaning into my words that was not there. I mentioned that the VHF could be used in the event that you were unsure of the intentions of another vessel or were not sure if they had seen you. This cannot in any way be seen as making arrangement to circumvent the rules, and as the Admiralty judge so rightly said should not be.

My use of the term 'constrained in her ability to manoever' to describe a yacht in some circumstances was carefully chosen because it is NOT a term used by the IRPCS, where the rules describe:

"a vessel constrained by her draft"
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"a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver"

I was not claiming that a yacht generally came into either of those categories, which is why I used a different term.

All I was doing was pointing out that a yacht in some circumstances might have very limited manoeverability compared to, for example, the fishing vessel it was trying to avoid. In fact, I gave an example of an incident that happened to us in SW Ireland further up the thread, which should have made it quite clear what I was talking about.

Now, I have passed a fairly stiff exam to show that I know the IRPCS, and I am sure you have as well - so let us accept that we both know them pretty well. The issue at stake is whether yachtsmen generally do, or whether in fact they make a habit of impeding fishing boats going about their daily work either because they are ignorant of the rules or because they choose to ignore them.

I don't believe that the latter is generally true . . . and neither do I believe that all fishermen always exhibit good seamanship. If however you are one of the (fortunately relatively few) fishermen who regard all Yachties as WAFIs with no right or reason to be on the water then there is not much point in continuing the discussion.

And talking of discussion - VHF radios can be and are used to chat about anything - but only on the approved ship to ship channels . . . I take it the Foie Gras reference was on ch16? Well, what do you expect - some yachties are prats I am afraid, but that doesn't mean we all are.


- NickB

An argument between Nick and Erik, and neither will give way! I think I got it about right first time when I said never assume the other vessel will give way! The sea is a dangerous place and it is dangerous to assume anything. There are undoubtedly good yachties, fishermen, ferrymen and cargo ship navigators, and all of them I suspect throw up bad examples in equal proportion.

Channel 16 may be used in a moment of boredom to create the dawn chorus of farm animals in the same way someone will use a mobile phone while driving down a motorway at 95mph. The cargo ship navigator may be intoxicated with drink (or drugs) in the same way that someone weaves down the country lane in the car having had 10 pints at the pub. And the yachtie may be asleep in his bunk, too tired to stay atop in the rain and dark just like the fisherman who left the wheel and went down the aft end to sort some pots.

If you want to stay alive, don't assume!

Well parried Nick.

I am not trying to say all yachties are tw*ts ...all though there are many that fall into that category.

I still..........respectfully disagree.....the point of the IRPCS regs are that they are indeed international. Any vessel of any nationality should be able to undersatnd them. A quick shout on the VHF, assuming you have a clear view of the name of the vessel that is about to smash into you, is not of much use if you don't speak the same language as the other skipper.

cannot bear to take your eyes off the fish finder

And perhaps you can tell me what you would do if say, for example you were a fishing skipper engaged in shooting gear in fairly poor weather and sea state and a yachtie was standing on, gear's flying off the rolling and pitching deck and you have a responsibility for the safety of your crew. A sudden and unexpected manouvere in this situation is pretty likely to lead to at least a good bollocking from your crew who are lying flat on their ar*es or perhaps, just as likely a rope around a leg and a man overboard attached to some rapidly sinking fishing gear.

My point is fairly simple - a vessel engaged in fishing or any 'work' at sea shouldn't be second guessed by amateur sailors (even if they have passes a stiff exam) who may 'think' they know what it's doing but rather given the respect it deserves and a wide safe berth.