A National Conversation

[spiderman]

Thanks, PP, for getting this blog back on track. I agree that having differing views is what debate is about and I just hope that lots of other folk will join the debate and, in due course, vote any way they want in a referendum.

As to what Scotland might consider giving up, dependence might be the obvious thing! And having to waste our smarter politicians in running Westminster for you!

[Seventhseil]

The fact that the UK as a whole comes 12th on the list of developed countrys in a review of living standards etc, Iceland being at the top with Norway, Denmark and Switzerland hard on thier heels (all small independent north european countries).

UK has a lower economic growth rate than Ireland....Finland has the wealthiest rural inhabitants in europe, Norway and Denmark the highest private sector rate of pay....... Need I go on.
Britain has the highest levels of teenage pregnancy, heart disease,liver disease in europe.......all this tells us is that Britain is not working and a complete shambles.

Independence for Scotland is not about "Brave Heart" but about escaping the short termist centralist economic model set down by a Goverment based in the SE of England and thinking long term about making Scotland, which is a country with a small population with a relativly large land mass, viable and finding ways of dealing with our own socio-economic problems in a way that works. Rather than being treated like "Scotlandshire"...

[canUsmellthat]

I like the cut of your jib seventh...I don't always agree with vermin/venomous creatures but you seem to make a good point.

Britain is the 4th worst country in the world for harbouring terrorists. Of course we wouldn't recognise one in our community, even if he/she prompted a search.

Maybe spider's one in disguise?

[Bugfreik]

[quote="Pentlandpirate"]Why is Scotland YOURS and not MINE? Have you ever looked at it from the other perspective? I was born in a country which is made up of Scotland, N.I, Wales and England. I pay taxes for all of it. I travel freely within it and it is MY country, shared with everyone else. What gives a minority the right to say this is OURS if we want it?

What a strange argument. Scotland is one of the oldest nations in and entered into a supposedly (ha!) equal union with England in 1707. Against the wishes of the majority of its citizens, by the way. Either partner can legally withdraw. Whether it's a good idea to do so is certainly debatable.
As for the EU. Why would an independent Scotland be excluded on application to join? It's an absurd argument, another bit of mischief-making from the lead-heads and bigots who control the 'unionist' parties and our 'national' press.

[Pentlandpirate]

Scotland is the unhealthiest part of the UK, according to a national survey.
Scots take more sick days, suffer more cancer and heart disease - and are more likely to have a "couch potato" lifestyle - than people in the rest of the UK.

Teenage pregnancy, liver failure, heart disease.......... who are the scots who can't take responsibility for their own bodies? Blame someone else? Isn't it Scottish authorities responsible for education (including s ex education), health and other matters that affect our lifestyles?

Scotland is the unhealthiest in the UK? After independence are you going to import the expertise from the rest of the UK to help improve your standards, or is home-grown always best?

Here's a more representative cross-section than you find on Seil Chat
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/11 ... s/#c_20659

[Bugfreik]

Terrible isn't it, PP. And indicative just how badly this country has been run for so long.
We don't need to blame anybody unless it's the Scottish Labour Party who have largely created this mess over the past 50 odd years. But let's forget them and start building the kind of society we can be poud of. And 'importing' help and advice fron ANYWHERE is a good idea. Why not?

[Pentlandpirate]

Yes, Bugfreik, and given that the Scots have always had the means, if not the will, to change these things for themselves, they definitely don't need independence to be able to improve these statistics.

[Bugfreik]

I'm not so sure. It's a lot to do with confidence and taking responsibility, not blaming 'the English' which is pathetic.
It's also about digging Scotland's real identity and culture out of the piles of tartan crap it's buried under.
Like most countries would celebrate the fact that we have three national languages instead we have so many people who display ( often in their own dialects) a peculiar and bafflingly spiteful resentment that anything other than 'English' should exist.
I could go on, but I need my porridge.....

[Pentlandpirate]

Way to go Bugfreik! Agreed on all points! All it takes is for the Scots, who are atalented and inventive race to sort them selves out. they have the politica means through devolution to achieve so much, but through the union gain so much more they could use to their advantage.

It is proven that Scotland cannot afford to exist on its own without higher taxation even to meet existing standards for pensions, health and education. You have the best of both worlds with devolution: money supplied from south of the border for the Scots to use as they see fit. If Scotalnd was such a bad place to live, why are house prices increasing, everywhere? There must be jobs, there must be money, people must want to live there.

[canUsmellthat]

I think Scotland would be able to afford independent status, if people were behind it. I know everyone rants about the direction of flow regarding the little oil there is in the North Sea but perhaps between this, whisky, shortbread, tourism and to the future water pipe needed to supply drought ridded areas of the UK...perhaps they can afford it.

[Seventhseil]

"It is proven that Scotland cannot afford to exist on its own without higher taxation even to meet existing standards for pensions, health and education."

your point being?

Remember our "worthless" oil was plundered recently by prudence Brown to plug his pension deficit.......and why does having high property prices always equate to being a positive thing?

Having higher taxation should not be a reason not to consider independence as Scandinavia has high taxation but is rewarded with exellent public services. This kind of scaremongering is counter productive as the Scotish labour party found to their cost.

Independence if it does come will be a graduall affair as confidence grows in Scotland and as Bugfriek said we stop blaming the English for our own mistakes.

[Pentlandpirate]

It is proven that Scotland cannot afford to exist on its own without higher taxation even to meet existing standards for pensions, health and education."

Point being you have to be realistic about whether independence is financially viable. You can't just hope that following a romantic dream will make everything work out.

High house prices are not necessarily a good thing. But within the UK they are normally an indicator of a buoyant economy.

Higher taxation? Almost always a vote loser in the UK.

It's not scaremongering. If a conversation is to be had about independence, you SHOULD look at worst (and best) case scenarios as a way of considering all the arguments for and against. After all it is a very BIG decision to make, and no one would want to regret it.

[novus ordo seclorum]

If this is an issue for the Scots alone (polls show that if the English have a vote on Scottish Independence a large majority would vote yes) then who is a Scot?
Born here?
Live here?
Own property here?
Vote here?
Ancestry (having defined Scot in the first place)?
A certain percentage of Scot if mixed ancestry?
Gaelic speaker?
Of Irish descent?
Welsh speaker (to identify a trace of Pictish heritage)
Hatred of English?
**By what criteria do those who claim to be Scottish justify their claim?**
NOS (Proud to be a Brit)

[Pentlandpirate]

hoorah for NOS

Who do they think they are?

They who think they have some God given right to try and split this nation unified in peace for so long?

Perhaps we should use FIFA's rules to verify who can claim Scots nationality .

There is room for Scottish individuality within Great Britain, a country which is known and respected for so much around the world. I'm proud to be British with a bit of Scotland flowing through my veins

[Eric the Viking]

Hej New worlds order and Pentland Pirates.

I am being enjoying watching the footballs last night....

I am to be reminded of great Norsk quote...

"Winston Churchill, Maggie Thatcher, Lady Di - You boys took a hellova beating" ja>

We Norse get independence from Swedes beginning of last century - We do not so bad - Swedes do not so bad all very happys.

We pays tax and gets our money being back in schools, hospitals, cares for the olds folk. We are living long, are having good houses, countryside is not fulls of litter, and our country is not being grinds to a halt when it snows, hospitals are not fulls of MRSA.

Brings it on I am being saying- this marriage is being one sided - you needs not the englisk - gets a divorce - they are only beings holding you back.

[Pentlandpirate]

Hey Erik,

It's not true why all the english suddenly become British after lastnight!

Anyhow England and Scotland is not a marriage from which you can get a divorce. We will all die British. However like any marriage that's a bit old in the tooth it spices things a little if you can have a bit on the side

like wales and ireland

[Eric the Viking]

Why?

Why are you not allowed to be splits?

Iffing you all to be dying British - shoulds you not be saying too:

"there is somes corner of a foreign fields thats is forever Britain?"

or...

"A Britishmans home is to be his castle, ja?"

If you are being ones nation ...and everythings being A's Okay - hunkydorys - then how's comes you are to be having a national anthem that is being racist against Scotlands?

Too me this is being not rights

[canUsmellthat]

If it's a marriage then it's between Frankenstein and his wife!

I'm afraid that abroad I am Scottish to anyone who asks me "what country are you from?" and I’m usually met with nods of approval and even admiration at times. If I had said “Britain” the response would have been negatively different. It's soo time for Scotland to have its own identity and to distance itself from England and her shocking foreign policies.

It was England's colony, the battle of England and "if you think old England’s done." It’s time to face up to her own ego and fuel herself using her own fuel, the bitch!

The world is confused about the UK, GB, Britain, England, Scotland, Wales, N Ireland and Ireland, it's time to set them straight and I'll damn the eyes of the first person who doesn't agree with me...

[Pentlandpirate]

Presumably there are quite alot of Scots who don't have a problem with 'Englands' involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Namely those who are prepared to risk their lives for the sake of "FREEDOM"

Those who form the backbone of Britains armed forces.........the Scots.

Yes, Blair lied. But how many top Labour ministers in Britains' parliament were Scots? Enough to make some English suggest that Britain was being taken over by Scots! Don't suggest this is an English war, and you should take more pride in what our British (including Scots) soldiers are trying to achieve for the better good of the world, when so many nations stand back, happy to let others die, as long as it's not them.

[Seventhseil]

Why are all you Unionists so scared of Scottish independence?
And why (all be it PP and NOS you are probably being reactionary for the sake of a bit of discussion) must you behave in the very way that has infuriated those of us who want Scotland to be an independent nation ie. patronising, condisending and with complete arrogance.

As for independence being a "romantic " notion this criticizm could be equally leveled at the notion of a "Great Britain", this ideal has led to British complacency and our low standing in Europe.