Vote YES for a Two tier Britain

[Innes Newton]

Not in a way that is relevant to a man on the street, no!

[NickB]

Not in a way that is relevant to a man on the street, no!

Are you 'on the street' ?

[Innes Newton]

You know what I mean, but with a silly answer you are just trying to ridicule my response.

Scots already have more spent on them than any other part of the UK? So what do you do with it?

If an independent Scotland was to be as wealthy as they suggest, what will it do for you?

[NickB]

Scots already have more spent on them than any other part of the Uk

Liar.

Government published regional breakdown of spending figures per head for the year 2012 to 2013 :

UK - £8,788

England: £8,529

Northern Ireland: £10,876

Scotland: £10,152

Wales: £9,709

Don't you ever bother checking ANY of your 'facts' before posting ?

(No, sorry, of course you don't - you are a NO supporter - silly of me to ask)

[Innes Newton]

No, I am not a liar. I was wrong. And I am man enough to admit it. Don't you have any manners? But I was not wrong to say that Scots get more spent on them than the English (or the Welsh which is really the main point). No doubt you want to moan now because the Northern Irish get more than the Scots, but I think you admit The Northern Irish have endured far bigger problems over a long period than Scotland has had.

Now if you really want to point the finger at a liar, by your standards, a man who doesn't check his facts because he doesn't have facts to base his assertions on, and also who knowingly gives incorrect information in the form of a lie, look to your own Alex Salmond.

He says Scotland will be in a currency union with the pound. Where are the facts to prove this? Lie
He says Scotland will be in the EU. But where are the facts (or the legal advice he got)? Another lie
He said the UK MOD would continue to buy its warships from Scotland. Where are the facts to prove this? Another lie
He said every person would be better off. But where are the facts? Another lie
He gave promise after promise after promise based on assertions. No facts. So all lies in your book.

The whole promise of a better future for an independent Scotland are based on his assertions and not one fact apart from it's all made up, with one aim to win Scottish Independence at any cost (which they also haven't worked out or been prepared to admit to). True, or am I a liar again?

[NickB]

No, I am not a liar.

Shall we say then that you have scant regard for the truth, and leave it at that ?

You spout imaginary factoids like a burst fire hose, never thinking to take the time to check on any of them. And when - as so often is the case - you are caught out you either ignore it and come out with another load of opinion masquerading as fact or attempt to bluster your way out of it.

[NickB]

.

[Innes Newton]

No, I am not a liar.

Shall we say then that you have scant regard for the truth, and leave it at that ?

You spout imaginary factoids like a burst fire hose, never thinking to take the time to check on any of them. And when - as so often is the case - you are caught out you either ignore it and come out with another load of opinion masquerading as fact or attempt to bluster your way out of it.

I thought a forum such as this is a place where people could express their opinions. You expect me to know everything in life and to be always right do you? Surprisingly not even I do. But you are every bit as guilty as me. You constantly churn out biased material which is not necessarily fact, ESPECIALLY that offered by the Yes Campaign. It is they spout imaginary factoids like a burst fire hose. And the No campaign also 'stretch' things too to suit their bias.

Just to remind you, the definition of 'to lie' is "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive". If I have got things wrong then I can assure you there was no intent to deceive. Do you really scream. "liar" at someone if they say something which you believe is incorrect?

Now let's get back to the truth and the fact that the Scots have more spent on them than everyone else in the UK except the Northern Irish, and the fact that the Yes Campaign is trying to mislead voters that they will be wealthier in an independent Scotland because a 'tuned' statistic suggests Scotland would be the 14th wealthiest nation on earth. The reality is, apparently, that everyone in Scotland will be poorer as a result of independence. Who is being dishonest?

[NickB]

The reality is, apparently, that everyone in Scotland will be poorer as a result of independence. Who is being dishonest?

There you go again. In what way is it 'reality'?

It is your opinion, with no supporting evidence provided.

[Innes Newton]

So you admit that Scotland will be wealthier than the UK after independence?

Look, let me see if I have got this right. The Yes campaign is saying that Scotland would be the 14th wealthiest nation.

That is NOT true.

What is true is that Scotland may have the 14th highest GDP per capita. (Slightly higher than the UK)

BUT rUK has a population almost 10 times that of Scotland, and therefore produces a total GDP nearly 10 times that of Scotland in isolation. GDP is not a measure of wealth.

Irrespective of size of GDP nothing in those figures mean that individuals in the country will be richer, or wealthier.

However the economic arguments have been put forward that show an Independent Scotland will have to raise its taxes, which will leave people poorer.

And when taxes rise in Scotland, yet fall in rUK as predicted it will only speed up the process which I believe will create a two tier Britain.

Here's an article that has just popped up today that supports my argument

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/a ... ns-workers

[NickB]

GDP is not a measure of wealth.

Oh really?

Strange that economists have been using it as just that for the last 80 years.

The thing is, Innes, you don't accept the happiness index either, or indeed ANY other index of wealth or wellbeing that shows Scotland to be well placed.

In short, you don't believe or countenance ANYTHING that contradicts your point of view.

You have a closed mind.

[Innes Newton]

I don't know if you ever studied Economics or Statistics in higher education, but I studied both. An GDP is now discredited as a measurement of wealth. That's not to say people may not use it as a statistic but it does not accurately measure wealth.

My point was, even if Scotland has a slightly higher GDP per capita (but a GDP 1/10th the size of the UK) how will independent Scots feel that in their pocket given that the Yes Campaign is shouting about Scotland being the wealthiest nation on earth (which simply is not true!). Measured on GDP (not GDP per capita) the UK is 10 times wealthier.

The Yes Campaign are deliberately misleading the people into thinking they will be financially better off.

In short, you don't believe or countenance ANYTHING that contradicts your point of view.

And nor do you. Does anyone? But my view can be changed. Remember I once supported Scottish Independence (a long time ago). My view has changed. and as my view changed I became even more convinced what a complete farce Scottish Independence is as currently presented. Turkey's voting for Christmas, Fool's Paradise, Ludicrous, that's what it is. And as crazy as it seems to you, the reality (being more careful to use the word) is that the majority of people out there agree with me and not you.

The Happiness index truly is ridiculous. If I do move to Seil after independence the country has got no prospect of becoming happier.

[NickB]

If I do move to Seil after independence the country has got no prospect of becoming happier.

That's certainly true.

[Innes Newton]

Well, seeing you can agree on that then, can you agree with one of Alex Salmond's top economic advisors that using a figure for GDP per capita and stating it is GDP is deliberately misleading to suggest that Scot's individuals will be financially better off in an independent Scotland? (or will your honesty not go that far?)

One of Alex Salmond's most senior former economic advisers, Prof John Kay, formerly on the First Minister's Council of Economic Advisers, said it was a "mistake" for voters to think claims of an independent Scotland being one of the world's wealthiest nations would mean more cash in their pockets

[DonnieC]

No, what you fail to mention is that statistics can be made to tell you anything you like

Does this mean the polls and statistics are not really showing the YES votes gaining prominence over the no's?

[Innes Newton]

Does this mean the polls and statistics are not really showing the YES votes gaining prominence over the no's?

No, I fully accept the trend.

But statistics very rarely tell the true story, especially where people are concerned. And you can be selective with statistics. Apparently the proportion of "don't Knows" has grown, which could mean the number of people who state they will vote Yes has fallen. Clearly more people have their doubts about the Yes Campaign than did previously. (of course it also means the converse for the No campaign, but lets not make such a big point of that, when it suits my bias). A greater proportion of don't knows is worrying for both camps because they can vote either way. And any suggestion that you should make the don't knows irrelevant and remove them from the overall voting percentage is done to mislead...as the Yes Campaign was guilty of doing only recently.

[DonnieC]

Clearly more people have their doubts about the Yes Campaign

Right, so that's why the YES numbers are going up then!

- Don't think so Mr Spock!

In a few hours it will be pub time - coming Nick - where us simple island folk talk real sense!

If our paths hadn't crossed before Innes I would have you down as a wind up merchant - how wrong can I be!

[Innes Newton]

Yet another example of the Yes Campaign misleading the public by only telling a part of the truth:

Scotland’s First Minister, Alex Salmond, was on the Andrew Marr show yesterday ahead of this September’s referendum on independence. According to him, the polls say the pro-independence campaign has the momentum:

“I mean the polls moved I think from 38 per cent yes in November to 42 per cent the average for February. The most recent ones, 45 per cent, so the Yes Campaign seems to have the momentum”

But we weren’t able to find a poll showing 45% support, and neither was BBC presenter Andrew Neil yesterday. However the Yes campaign did speak of such a poll only last week, conducted by Survation. When people were asked “should Scotland be an independent country?” – the wording of the referendum question – 39% said yes and 48% said no, with 13% undecided.

The campaign looked at this poll “on a binary basis” – excluding don’t knows – which put the answers at 45% yes and 55% no.

Statistics rarely tell the whole story, but when someone such as Alex Salmond deliberately corrupts them they take on a whole new meaning to the minds of those who are so easily deceived.

[NickB]

Statistics rarely tell the whole story, but when someone such as Alex Salmond deliberately corrupts them they take on a whole new meaning to the minds of those who are so easily deceived.

The removal of the 'don't knows' to create a YES/NO figure is standard poll analysis technique and nothing to do with Alex Salmond.

Read Prof. Curtice on the Survation poll HERE

Your accusation of deliberate corruption of the figures by Salmond is utterly wrong.

You really are unbelieveably misinformed - or a barefaced liar . . . which is it ?

[Innes Newton]

Nick, you have double standards. Remember everything Yes Campaign 'Good', everything Westminster bad.

You call me a liar, when I say something which I thought was true but was later proven to be incorrect, and I accepted that.
Yet when Alex Salmond states things as fact when he cannot possibly know will be fact, and when he deliberately only tells part of the truth, you believe everything he says. At best Alex Salmond is economical with the truth, but by your standards Nick, he is an out and out liar. The trouble is that innocent people are being conned by that liar.

Why do some people trust a liar? If he can tell one lie he is capable of telling a thousand.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... tions.html

http://news.stv.tv/politics/196346-gove ... oining-eu/

http://www.thinkscotland.org/todays-thi ... full=11779

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home ... p.23761146

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politi ... s-1.175317

http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/scotland-24475250

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... laims.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... -ever.html

I am at least honest enough to admit that incredibly rarely I will tell a lie. How about you? How about Alex Salmond?