Balvicar Stores

[spiderman]

The old thread having been locked and partly deleted, I feel that the issue is one of the most important facing the island so here's a new thread for anyone to express any ideas on how best to ensure a good future for this crucial part of the Seil community.

[Pentlandpirate]

I utterley agree Spider. If this site was set up to discuss local issues, what is more of a local issue than the continuing success of the only store for miles, which is geographically and in importance, right at the heart of the community? Why should a website set up to discuss these issues be the ONLY place where the subject will NOT be discussed? Is censorsship of the subject going to stop it being discussed amongst friends and locals in pubs, at home, at work, on the phone, at the Oban Times......

Censorship is always bad, and only drives people to talk freely elsewhere. You can't stop it.

I've asked Nick to cancel my membership on this site and delete all my entries, rather than just block me. Unfortunately I can't find a button to do it. Can anyone tell me how to do it?

[spiderman]

Don't go, PP - we need your input on all matters. Stay and fight for local free speech!

[Sandy MacSeil]

Well done, Spidey, for keeping the shop thread going. As Pentland says, this is an important community issue and, who knows, the communiuty might just come up with a solution if it can be allowed to keep talking here. NoS had already made a good start with his offer. Pentland, you have been a major contributor of common sense over many years - don't abandon us now! Stick around and continue giving us your insights. Stick around and help the cause of free speech on this site.

[novus ordo seclorum]

Pentland; stick around.......you, and many others here, talk sense.
I've just read Admin's posts on the thread he locked and, in his defence, I don't think he is banning all discussion of the sale of the Lease on the shop. From what he said:
[b]"I had good reason to post what I did and will remove any further financial speculation"[/b]
it appears he is only banning discussion of money matters.
It may well be that A and J complained to him. I'll ask them today and if that is the case I shall apologise directly to them for posting about how money could be raised by an interested local to facilitate their sale.

Assuming we are not banned from discussing other issues regarding the sale then I'll reiterate my position:
1. I feel A and J have done a magnificent job and been a true asset to Seil.
2. I wish them well in their future downsize and hope that the sale goes through swiftly and satisfyingly.
3. I would favour a hardworking and ambitious young local couple to take over the lease.
4. If that is not possible I would welcome an incoming couple from elsewhere in the UK with open arms.

Finally; anyone know anything about community buy-outs?

NoS

[Pentlandpirate]

Finally; anyone know anything about community buy-outs?

Well, that's exactly along the lines I was thinking of.......an island co-operative. It could be a flagship example to others.

Likewise I think Balvicar stores is a wonderful Aladdin's Cave and A & J's dedication to the shop, and contribution to the community, is worthy of a medal. I apologise too if they are upset it should be so openly discussed. But the internet and this site that Nick set up, specifically for this sort of issue, is the modern way. In a backwater community some may not be used to having their business discussed in public but in this case it should be true once again that 'all publicity is good publicity'. In fact, talk of a community coming to gether on this issue is only likely to increase awareness, attract potential buyers, and harden a selling price. And I'll bet the shop will take more business now merely because its future is being discussed.

[Sandy MacSeil]

A community buy-out is a great idea. There must be many of us who might chip in both financially and with some shoptime? The best type of community buy-out would be one in which A & J stayed on here, much reducing their working hours as much as they wish, retaining a financial stake and supervising the novice partners. Also it would be good if the property owner was involved sympathetically. Anyone else like the concept?

[NickB]

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Thankyou NOS. I did not 'ban' the subject of the shop per se, all I asked was that people refrain from posting conjectural figures about a local business on here. You can consider that as a hard and fast forum rule now if you like. As I said, there were good reasons for this, which I have tried to explain.

You are all making it sound as though the shop is in imminent danger of closing or disappearing and this is most definitely not the case. It is a successful business being marketed through the normal channels for this type of business and there is every reason to suppose that in due course a suitable buyer will come forward. Apart from anything else the full-time Post Office makes this an attractive proposition.

ON the other matter, please try to keep threads on topic. I will not tolerate threads degenerating into a mess of personal attacks on me or anyone else. If people cannot accept my decisons as moderator then there are other local forums available.

[Sandy MacSeil]

Please get out the road of this constructive thread! You keep taking offence at almost nothing. A local buy-out or community takeover would be a great solution!

[NickB]

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Sandy, Kathy and I ran a village shop for seven years. Frankly I think that makes me a little more qualified than you on this subject. There is no 'problem' therefore no 'solution' is currently required. If a local consortium make a firm offer of the asking price then I am sure it will be considered, but I would prefer to have a shop and post office run by a businessman - or a business couple - rather than one run by a committee.

Could I also point out that this 'save our shop' hysteria is currently being whipped up by yourself and just three other posters. You are no more representative of this community as a group than any other four people who do not choose to spend their time pontificating on internet chatrooms. Why not go and have a chat with Alastair and Jean before taking this notion of a community buyout any further? At least then you might have some idea of the magnitude of the task you were proposing and some of the problems you are likely to encounter.

[Pentlandpirate]

Sandy, Kathy and I ran a village shop for seven years. Frankly I think that makes me a little more qualified than you on this subject.

No one is debating that you have SOME experience. Some individuals on this site might have their own considerable business experience, and whilst different to running a shop, may have qualities that mean they might even be able to enhance the business. After all 'sales is sales'.

You can't dismiss the possibility that the shop closes in the longer term. After all that was your own experience apparently when you sold your own shop.

I think it is an interesting and exciting topic of discussion that members of the community come together through a forum like this to explore ways of guaranteeing its future, with the possibility of a project that ties different members of the community together in an enterprise good for all.

[NickB]

Sandy, Kathy and I ran a village shop for seven years. Frankly I think that makes me a little more qualified than you on this subject.

No one is debating that you have SOME experience. Some individuals on this site might have their own considerable business experience, and whilst different to running a shop, may have qualities that mean they might even be able to enhance the business. After all 'sales is sales'.

You can't dismiss the possibility that the shop closes in the longer term. After all that was your own experience apparently when you sold your own shop.

I think it is an interesting and exciting topic of discussion that members of the community come together through a forum like this to explore ways of guaranteeing its future, with the possibility of a project that ties different members of the community together in an enterprise good for all.

This shop is a leasehold business - there is no danger of it being closed by a new proprietor and turned into a house, which was what happened to the shop in Drumlithie. The current proprietors have demonstrated clearly that there is a viable and thriving business there, but it requires expertise, experience and a lot of very hard work. They will continue to provide the same service until the business is sold - there is no danger of the shop suddenly closing.

I find it unlikely that a community-run co-op could ever provide the same level of service. I can just imagine the bickering over whose turn it is to go into Oban at six o'clock on a Winters morning to get the papers. Usually when a co-op takes over a shop it is a last resort because the business is no longer commercially viable. This is unlikely to ever be the case on Seil as more houses are being built, the holiday letting trade is flourishing and the journey to the nearest supermarket is twelve miles over fairly difficult roads. In addition there is a full-time post office which provides a guaranteed income.

There is a local community co-op in Appin and it might be worth getting in touch with them if anyone is seriously considering taking this further. I would still recommend a chat with Jean and Alastair first though.

[spiderman]

I don't see any "hysteria", just a few folk trying to discuss and to help. You say there is no problem but of course there is. The 2 people who have magically transformed the shop are leaving. THAT is a problem. Furthermore, in the present climate, no rural post office is secure. THAT is a problem. Hence we need a solution. I'm sure that there will be good offers made and so there should be as it is now a great thriving wee business. But there seems to be no harm at all in local folk using the chat site to discuss local solutions. And not everyone is as negative and depressing about the capability of a consortium of locals to share the workload. Furthermore, IF A & J want to downsize but not leave Seil, this community-based proposal would provide a unique opportunity for them to stay, retain a strong interest and involvement but share out the workload.

[Pentlandpirate]

You've got to admit Nick it will be tough enough for anyone to come up to A & J's standards of commitment. 90 hours a week is not a way of life many will choose, and there is a real risk anyone else coming in on a go-it alone basis may fall short in the long term. As Spider says a joint venture / co-operative is one way to share the load. Yes, a co-operative might have been a last resort in many cases, but not in all, and there are many, many projects which have been reliant on people teaming their individual contribution into something where it has become a great success: people power!

You suggest a co-operative might fall apart through internal bickering. But why does it have to? It is possible to get a group of people together who share an ideal and can iron out any differences democratically. Isn't it true alot of people continue to come to Seil to seek the sense of community they can't find elsewhere? Owned and run by a co-operative I'm sure you could find several individuals locally who would love to work at the shop full or part time. They need not be any less passionate about the quality of service they provide, but can work the (more normal) hours that fit their lifestyle.

And locals who join the co-operative might enjoy a discount scheme, subsidised by passing and tourist trade.

Having the shop in local control might be preferable to someone who comes in and cuts opening hours and the range of products and services available, don't you think?

[canUsmellthat]

The idea of a local co-op running the business is nice to think about and, in an ideal world, would be a perfect solution to a community with no-one coming forward to run the local shop...However, I think it would have to be a group of individuals who have run successful initiatives (preferably grocery shops!) in the past and are not first timers...Also, perhaps this community does not have to offer the calibre of person(s) required to work selflessly and harmoniously together towards the comon good of the island, all be it with a bridge...

How is the hall being run???

[longshanks]

Blimey, an interesting, constructive and relevent thread !
A few questions for MacB first:
# Why can't you buy a lease on a shop and then close the shop for the term of the lease thus creating a nice holiday home?
# "I will not tolerate threads degenerating into a mess of personal attacks on me"; I missed that, have you banned those concerned? Name and Shame.
# What was the "good reason" for banning posts of a financial nature? Have you received complaints?

Now; this Community BuyOut Option. Well worth exploring.
http://forargyll.com/2010/03/glencoe-jo ... -hospital/
quote - "Tayvallivch in Argyll, where the small lochside community opted to buyout the village shop, post office, petrol station and coffee bar"
and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... y-out.html
Sounds quite exciting to me, and something which could bring us all together on this island.

Divi Shanks (co-opted by choice)

[NickB]

Blimey, an interesting, constructive and relevent thread !
A few questions for MacB first:
# Why can't you buy a lease on a shop and then close the shop for the term of the lease thus creating a nice holiday home?
# "I will not tolerate threads degenerating into a mess of personal attacks on me"; I missed that, have you banned those concerned? Name and Shame.
# What was the "good reason" for banning posts of a financial nature? Have you received complaints?

1: Why would anyone pay £130,000 plus a commercial rental to rent a holiday home for a few years? This is not going to happen.

2: If you missed it you missed it - keep up at the back. The posts in question - and the abusive PMs I received - have all been deleted. One clever person even decided to put an abusive personal remark in his signature. Cunning but unacceptable -the forum rules are quite clear on this, personal attacks on other posters will not be tolerated. No one has been banned, but it is very likely that there will be bans if there is a repeat performance, so keep it civil and accept that this is a moderated forum, not a democracy.

3: The main party involved has indeed let me know that they are unhappy about the 'unfounded and inaccurate speculation' that has taken place on here, which, which was why I said that there would be no more discussion of hypothetical figures on this forum - it is not the place for it. The gross turnover is publicly available, but other figures will only be made available to qualified and interested parties through the selling agent.

[Pentlandpirate]

Nick, haven't you thought you would be the perfect person to buy the shop? Shop owning business experience, husband and wife team, live right near by, someone who knows the community and what is required......perfect! Get a manager in when you want a holiday, and even a long yacht trip is not out of the question. Even you said it was an 'attractive business'. It's got me thinking!

[Sandy MacSeil]

This is a great solution and one that perhaps explains Nick's consistently negative response to community buy-out ideas. Go for it, Nick! We'll support you if you promise to be nice to customers.

[NickB]

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Sorry guys, thanks for the vote of confidence but we did the shop thing for seven years. It was fun but it's a younger person's lifestyle.