Our news bulletins are full of reports on the goings-on in Helmand province of Afghanistan, and of the efforts to defeat the Taliban.
What surprises me, is that no mention is ever made of how the Taliban come to be such an organised cohesive force. Where on earth do they get all the money to pay their operatives and provide them with weapons (and ammunition)? It must cost a fair whack to finance the whole shebang, and some people or some country is providing the wherewithal to bankroll the whole operation. Surely, if the financial source could be turned off, the whole thing would fizzle out like a damp squib.
Someone must know, yet the backers and financiers of the Taliban are never mentioned. Why?
Taliban
Moderator: Herby Dice
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DiscoClint
Re: Taliban
There are plenty of supporters of fundamentalist Islam around to give cash, although I agree that opium is a major fundraiser.
However, had the war in Afghanistan been treated with the appropriate degree of respect and funding before launching a completely non-essential and unjustified attack on Iraq, there's a good chance that enough of the country could have been stabilized and rebuilt to allow democracy and security to take a foothold. Unfortunately Bush and Cheney's (and Blair's) ill-advised and corporate-backed Iraqi war pulled much needed resources from Afghanistan which has led us to the two unfinished messes that now have the capability to destabilize the entire region. They either didn't realize how difficult it would be (unlikely; see Soviet-Afghanistan war 1979-1989) or they didn't care (possibly; who cares about people when your only goal is to have a military presence in a resource-rich region).
With respect to the Taliban, without the aid of religion to drive forward their archaic and immoral views (i.e. Sharia law) they would never have been able to persuade people that their way of life was the way to live. Saying that, without the backing of fundamentalist Christian America, George Bush might never have been able to sell his "crusade" to enough of the American public to launch the war in the first place.
Maybe in the absence of religion, these wars would have never happened due to a lack of justification?
However, had the war in Afghanistan been treated with the appropriate degree of respect and funding before launching a completely non-essential and unjustified attack on Iraq, there's a good chance that enough of the country could have been stabilized and rebuilt to allow democracy and security to take a foothold. Unfortunately Bush and Cheney's (and Blair's) ill-advised and corporate-backed Iraqi war pulled much needed resources from Afghanistan which has led us to the two unfinished messes that now have the capability to destabilize the entire region. They either didn't realize how difficult it would be (unlikely; see Soviet-Afghanistan war 1979-1989) or they didn't care (possibly; who cares about people when your only goal is to have a military presence in a resource-rich region).
With respect to the Taliban, without the aid of religion to drive forward their archaic and immoral views (i.e. Sharia law) they would never have been able to persuade people that their way of life was the way to live. Saying that, without the backing of fundamentalist Christian America, George Bush might never have been able to sell his "crusade" to enough of the American public to launch the war in the first place.
Maybe in the absence of religion, these wars would have never happened due to a lack of justification?
Re: Taliban
Good reply DiscoC and good argument. I never know how to word things properly, hence my sticking to commenting on the arts forum as opposed to this one usually.
But, one thing I do strongly believe is that, even though religion causes problems, and many people all through the ages have hidden behind it and used it to jusify their actions, is that, without it.. well, in the nature of the human race... something else would be invented or thought of to argue over and justify actions. Sad, but, I believe, quite true.
In a parrallel world, where religion didn't exist, we would perhaps be arguing over some sort of science, or just basically how each country should live their lives.
I think, the sad truth is that, most governments have their own secret and selfish agendas and everyone else suffers as a result. An appalling example is, the English government allowing sharia law to run alongside British law in some parts of the country..... disgusting.
I'm just a great believer in live and let live as long as it doesn't infringe upon anyone elses human rights.
But, one thing I do strongly believe is that, even though religion causes problems, and many people all through the ages have hidden behind it and used it to jusify their actions, is that, without it.. well, in the nature of the human race... something else would be invented or thought of to argue over and justify actions. Sad, but, I believe, quite true.
In a parrallel world, where religion didn't exist, we would perhaps be arguing over some sort of science, or just basically how each country should live their lives.
I think, the sad truth is that, most governments have their own secret and selfish agendas and everyone else suffers as a result. An appalling example is, the English government allowing sharia law to run alongside British law in some parts of the country..... disgusting.
I'm just a great believer in live and let live as long as it doesn't infringe upon anyone elses human rights.
La felicitá é come una farfalla
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DiscoClint
Re: Taliban
Thanks ShyGirl, I think you word things just fine, although I'm afraid I don't know how to create or comment on art, so instead I spend my time sitting memorizing snippets of atheist propaganda and looking for Longshanks daughters (sorry Shanks).
While I see your point that in the absence of religion we would just find something else to argue about, I think that it would merely be religion in another guise. Science is already argued about every day, however, the key difference is that scientists argue about hypotheses which are rigorously tested until the outcome of the same experiment could be predicted to within 95-99% if repeated. Sometimes the hypotheses are wrong, sometimes they are right, but being wrong isn't such a bad thing as long as human knowledge has progressed. Many religious theories that haven't been disproved already, may never be disproved and so people will continue to believe them, despite there being no evidence to support their existence. It's easy to mislead people into fighting for religion, but rarely are people led to fight for science (although it might happen should fundamentalism continue to grow.....). Science is not an alternative to religion or belief; it is a systematic method.
I quite agree with you when you said "live and let live as long as it doesn't infringe upon anyone elses human rights", I think its a very good way to live your life. However, what if your beliefs lend credibility to others who do pursue immoral practices? It's just a hypothetical question. Not trying to offend anyone.
While I see your point that in the absence of religion we would just find something else to argue about, I think that it would merely be religion in another guise. Science is already argued about every day, however, the key difference is that scientists argue about hypotheses which are rigorously tested until the outcome of the same experiment could be predicted to within 95-99% if repeated. Sometimes the hypotheses are wrong, sometimes they are right, but being wrong isn't such a bad thing as long as human knowledge has progressed. Many religious theories that haven't been disproved already, may never be disproved and so people will continue to believe them, despite there being no evidence to support their existence. It's easy to mislead people into fighting for religion, but rarely are people led to fight for science (although it might happen should fundamentalism continue to grow.....). Science is not an alternative to religion or belief; it is a systematic method.
I quite agree with you when you said "live and let live as long as it doesn't infringe upon anyone elses human rights", I think its a very good way to live your life. However, what if your beliefs lend credibility to others who do pursue immoral practices? It's just a hypothetical question. Not trying to offend anyone.
Re: Taliban
Yes, I agree too. That's what I probably meant to say (told you I'm not so good with words!).
And despite being raised a catholic (not practising now) most of my friends are athiest (or agnostic). I don't mind religion for those that merely find some comfort in it and don't 'shove it in others faces' so to speak.
I admit, my argument is a little flimsy... and probably has a touch of the "rose tinted specs" feel to it. And, you're right, people wouldn't really fight over science (bad example). I think it's just in the human nature to argue (a lot of the time), and it's something that will never go away, with or without religion being there.
And, as for beliefs adding credibility to peoples wrong actions. Well, I think it's an unfortunate way of life, and maybe we're too far past the point of being able to correct it to change now.. although the vast majority of sane thinking people can see that it is so badly wrong.
To change all that is wrong in the world now.... where on earth would we start?
And despite being raised a catholic (not practising now) most of my friends are athiest (or agnostic). I don't mind religion for those that merely find some comfort in it and don't 'shove it in others faces' so to speak.
I admit, my argument is a little flimsy... and probably has a touch of the "rose tinted specs" feel to it. And, you're right, people wouldn't really fight over science (bad example). I think it's just in the human nature to argue (a lot of the time), and it's something that will never go away, with or without religion being there.
And, as for beliefs adding credibility to peoples wrong actions. Well, I think it's an unfortunate way of life, and maybe we're too far past the point of being able to correct it to change now.. although the vast majority of sane thinking people can see that it is so badly wrong.
To change all that is wrong in the world now.... where on earth would we start?
La felicitá é come una farfalla
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DiscoClint
Re: Taliban
I am constantly trying to work out if it's better to keep my opinions to myself, thus preventing offending people (the majority of which I am sure leave good and honest lives .......at least as honest as any atheist or agnostic, haha!!) or speak out against something that obviously brings comfort to so many people, despite it being used for millennium to control and manipulate. Especially when speaking out is often going to make bugger all difference with most, since belief is impossible to refute.
To answer your question, I think a good place to start is proper education for everyone. The last 100 years or so has been the greatest leap mankind has ever made with regards to understanding the workings of our world. There has been a corresponding drop in believers and increase in freedom in what you can choose to be true. Perhaps we are at a point where the remnants of the old world and old philosophies are being pushed back, but not yet gone. We are in a very privileged position and some people may not have realized it yet. It is possible with a fair and balanced education (scientific and religious, although separated; no creationism in science class please), religion will be extinct by the end of this century. Maybe that would be a good thing, maybe not.
To answer your question, I think a good place to start is proper education for everyone. The last 100 years or so has been the greatest leap mankind has ever made with regards to understanding the workings of our world. There has been a corresponding drop in believers and increase in freedom in what you can choose to be true. Perhaps we are at a point where the remnants of the old world and old philosophies are being pushed back, but not yet gone. We are in a very privileged position and some people may not have realized it yet. It is possible with a fair and balanced education (scientific and religious, although separated; no creationism in science class please), religion will be extinct by the end of this century. Maybe that would be a good thing, maybe not.
Last edited by DiscoClint on Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Taliban
Apologies Jimee, we seem to have deviated from your original query...
going back to your question..well, I don't have snippets from cleverly written articles or links to related sources. But, going on my own (if not accurate or correct thinking), I would hazard a guess at corrupt government funding or rich (and drugs funded as pointed out by Teddy) sympathisers.
Anyway, although life in the UK (or anywhere come to think of it) is far from perfect... I thank my lucky stars I am not a woman in one of those barbaric countries. I just feel for our men whose lives are lost through all this idiocy.
going back to your question..well, I don't have snippets from cleverly written articles or links to related sources. But, going on my own (if not accurate or correct thinking), I would hazard a guess at corrupt government funding or rich (and drugs funded as pointed out by Teddy) sympathisers.
Anyway, although life in the UK (or anywhere come to think of it) is far from perfect... I thank my lucky stars I am not a woman in one of those barbaric countries. I just feel for our men whose lives are lost through all this idiocy.
La felicitá é come una farfalla
Re: Taliban
It's such a difficult thing to argue/think through. In a 'perfect world' we could have little groups of people believing and being comforted by their own beliefs and 'security blankets'... or would that be just dull ??? 
And there starts another argument... you see, everyone would have a different view on what correct or proper education was. Unless you did everything scientifically... but then, there's always the argument that we don't know what else exists elsewhere in the universe or beyond or 'simple being'. It's too much for our basic human mind to even begin to be able to comprehend.
At the same time DiscoC, I know exactly where you are coming from.....
I think the reason we will never get to a 'nice' point is also to do with human personalities... ie: control freaks etc... even if everyone got to the 'live and let live' point, there would still be a little group of controllers shouting 'what about me', 'listen to me'.... me me me
And there starts another argument... you see, everyone would have a different view on what correct or proper education was. Unless you did everything scientifically... but then, there's always the argument that we don't know what else exists elsewhere in the universe or beyond or 'simple being'. It's too much for our basic human mind to even begin to be able to comprehend.
At the same time DiscoC, I know exactly where you are coming from.....
I think the reason we will never get to a 'nice' point is also to do with human personalities... ie: control freaks etc... even if everyone got to the 'live and let live' point, there would still be a little group of controllers shouting 'what about me', 'listen to me'.... me me me
La felicitá é come una farfalla
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DiscoClint
Re: Taliban
Quite right. Sorry.
With opium being a major funding body for the Taliban, is there any way to get rid of it? You can just destroy it, it will just make the Afghans more likely to join the Taliban as it's their only source of income. You can't buy it as there's too much for use in hospitals, and they'll just make more and more. Without legalising it you can't sell it for recreational use. Portugal has shown some interesting statistics since it decriminalized drug possession, although the money still goes to the drug dealer with that method and therefore straight back to the Taliban. It would need to be sold by the government which requires for legalization and that's not going to happen.
So you have to give the Afghans an alternative to growing opium, but not enough money was put into rebuilding the economy after the invasion and still isn't being put into the country in general, so there isn't enough money in growing anything except opium.
The whole thing was a massive screw-up. I think the war itself was justified, but the planning was atrocious. I feel for the people living there and the soldiers trying to help them with one hand tied behind their back.
With opium being a major funding body for the Taliban, is there any way to get rid of it? You can just destroy it, it will just make the Afghans more likely to join the Taliban as it's their only source of income. You can't buy it as there's too much for use in hospitals, and they'll just make more and more. Without legalising it you can't sell it for recreational use. Portugal has shown some interesting statistics since it decriminalized drug possession, although the money still goes to the drug dealer with that method and therefore straight back to the Taliban. It would need to be sold by the government which requires for legalization and that's not going to happen.
So you have to give the Afghans an alternative to growing opium, but not enough money was put into rebuilding the economy after the invasion and still isn't being put into the country in general, so there isn't enough money in growing anything except opium.
The whole thing was a massive screw-up. I think the war itself was justified, but the planning was atrocious. I feel for the people living there and the soldiers trying to help them with one hand tied behind their back.
Re: Taliban
To be completely honest, I don't know enough about politics etc to make an educated comment.
But, thinking about it. I think it's a case of government/rebel struggles + the struggles of desperately poor people = disaster.
(excuse spelling etc.. red wine + keyboard does not a pretty post make)...
it's quite horrific for the people caught in between, but the people making decisions ... (well, would we have made a better choice, or been swayed by political, outside pressures), given the huge pressure of such a situation (and knowing the full details).
Not sticking up for anyone side I am a Libran (and a natural (if not by choice) of seeing all sides).
It's a hard life so it is.
But, thinking about it. I think it's a case of government/rebel struggles + the struggles of desperately poor people = disaster.
(excuse spelling etc.. red wine + keyboard does not a pretty post make)...
it's quite horrific for the people caught in between, but the people making decisions ... (well, would we have made a better choice, or been swayed by political, outside pressures), given the huge pressure of such a situation (and knowing the full details).
Not sticking up for anyone side I am a Libran (and a natural (if not by choice) of seeing all sides).
It's a hard life so it is.
La felicitá é come una farfalla
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DiscoClint
Re: Taliban
You touch on a scary possibility; that all of what is happening now was predicted during the government planning and accepted as collateral damage for achieving a greater goal. But what goal is worth that much? Oil? A permanent military base in the middle east? Something we don't know about?
Whatever the reason, has it been done with us (the plebs) in mind, in order to keep us in the manner to which we are accustomed? If that's the case how much would we be willing to lose from our lifestyles if it could reverse the destruction caused in Afghanistan.
If it wasn't done for us, was it just done for the ruling classes? Surely as long as we are ignorantly happy with our car, job and mortgage the ruling class don't need to worry as we are there to make money for them.
Sorry, I have gone all over-dramatic and rhetorical! I must be in need of a drink also.
Whatever the reason, has it been done with us (the plebs) in mind, in order to keep us in the manner to which we are accustomed? If that's the case how much would we be willing to lose from our lifestyles if it could reverse the destruction caused in Afghanistan.
If it wasn't done for us, was it just done for the ruling classes? Surely as long as we are ignorantly happy with our car, job and mortgage the ruling class don't need to worry as we are there to make money for them.
Sorry, I have gone all over-dramatic and rhetorical! I must be in need of a drink also.
Re: Taliban
haha, your posts are far superior to mine DC... and I wouldn't recommend the drink+posting option.
Or, you may end up with cr*p posts like mine!
ps: I think if everyone was selfless enough to sacrifice a little enough to benefit others, then not only would the world be beautiful, but... sadly.. that vision would be deemed a 'hippy view'... good god, maybe I am a hippy but never realised until now...
Or, you may end up with cr*p posts like mine!
ps: I think if everyone was selfless enough to sacrifice a little enough to benefit others, then not only would the world be beautiful, but... sadly.. that vision would be deemed a 'hippy view'... good god, maybe I am a hippy but never realised until now...
La felicitá é come una farfalla
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DiscoClint
Re: Taliban
Nonsense! Your posts are great and not just because for once someone agrees with some of the things I say.....
I am up for the happy "hippy" world in principle, but I'm not sure what would actually happen if someone took away some of my luxuries. It's funny how I can always convince myself that there are people out there who are richer than me who should be giving to charity first, but if everyone said that there would only ever be one person on earth who would ever give to charity. OK, maybe I could live without the microwave.
I am up for the happy "hippy" world in principle, but I'm not sure what would actually happen if someone took away some of my luxuries. It's funny how I can always convince myself that there are people out there who are richer than me who should be giving to charity first, but if everyone said that there would only ever be one person on earth who would ever give to charity. OK, maybe I could live without the microwave.
Re: Taliban
Thankyou 
Just a bit unsure at the mo, because I'm a bit of a 'newbie' to debate etc.... and being a gentle wee soul in general (though not a coward by any means).. just watching what I say.
People are always richer in different senses. For every rich person, there is someone who is richer in 'family', 'love', 'money', 'freedom'. I am poor in some senses, but compared to some others, i probably seem so lucky (or rich).
Just a bit unsure at the mo, because I'm a bit of a 'newbie' to debate etc.... and being a gentle wee soul in general (though not a coward by any means).. just watching what I say.
People are always richer in different senses. For every rich person, there is someone who is richer in 'family', 'love', 'money', 'freedom'. I am poor in some senses, but compared to some others, i probably seem so lucky (or rich).
La felicitá é come una farfalla
Re: Taliban
Well, Well, Well,
When I posted that bit about Taliban funding, I never expected it to become a vehicle for a private discussion between a shrinking violet and a DJ.
I would like to point out a couple of points before this degenerates into a love affair between these two.
Opium is being cited as the finance behind the Taliban, but opium profits for the Afghan farmer and even the Taliban wholesalers, are unlikely to pay the wage bill of all these die hard fundamentalists.
The big money is made further down the chain with the smugglers and and the dealers in the countries where the demand is.
If you accept this premise, then it follows that the true financial backers of the Taliban, are the addicts, around the world.
Legalisation would drive the price down and make it a cash crop that might not be worth the effort to the farmer - unless the governments that cream off a sizeable tax on the other two killers - tobacco and alcohol, added dope to their shopping basket.
Finally - corrupt government was mentioned. Which?
When I posted that bit about Taliban funding, I never expected it to become a vehicle for a private discussion between a shrinking violet and a DJ.
I would like to point out a couple of points before this degenerates into a love affair between these two.
Opium is being cited as the finance behind the Taliban, but opium profits for the Afghan farmer and even the Taliban wholesalers, are unlikely to pay the wage bill of all these die hard fundamentalists.
The big money is made further down the chain with the smugglers and and the dealers in the countries where the demand is.
If you accept this premise, then it follows that the true financial backers of the Taliban, are the addicts, around the world.
Legalisation would drive the price down and make it a cash crop that might not be worth the effort to the farmer - unless the governments that cream off a sizeable tax on the other two killers - tobacco and alcohol, added dope to their shopping basket.
Finally - corrupt government was mentioned. Which?
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Eric the Viking
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Re: Taliban
Nothing new in drug funded war - Reagan, Bush and the CIA were complicit in the funding the Contra rebels (terrorists?) in Nicaragua by allowing the smuggling and sale of crack cocaine on the streets of the US to undermine the democratcally elected Sandanista government.
Om jeg hamrer eller hamres,
ligefuldt så skal der jamres!
ligefuldt så skal der jamres!
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DiscoClint
Re: Taliban
What can I say, it is a rather emotional topic. If you'd come back just a bit earlier it could have been rather exciting! That boat has now sailed JimCee.
Corrupt governments? I think I just said that the war was very poorly planned by the U.S.A. & UK, but questionsed the reasoning for it. As I said previously during the planing of the Afghan invasion they either completely underestimated how difficult it would be to invade, reinstate democracy and provide stability, which is unlikely since they would have seen what happened to the soviets OR they knew fine well what would happen and decided it didn't really matter or was worth destroying a country for. Afghanistan was crap under the Taliban, so no big loss there, and I think it was necessary to get rid of Taliban and Al Queda training camps, but why the hell did they then invade Iraq, a completely innocent bystander? Spreading the troops and funds made it impossible to complete the Afghan mission and everything soldiers had fought for was wrecked.
So are you recommending the legalization of opium?
Corrupt governments? I think I just said that the war was very poorly planned by the U.S.A. & UK, but questionsed the reasoning for it. As I said previously during the planing of the Afghan invasion they either completely underestimated how difficult it would be to invade, reinstate democracy and provide stability, which is unlikely since they would have seen what happened to the soviets OR they knew fine well what would happen and decided it didn't really matter or was worth destroying a country for. Afghanistan was crap under the Taliban, so no big loss there, and I think it was necessary to get rid of Taliban and Al Queda training camps, but why the hell did they then invade Iraq, a completely innocent bystander? Spreading the troops and funds made it impossible to complete the Afghan mission and everything soldiers had fought for was wrecked.
So are you recommending the legalization of opium?
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Pentlandpirate
Re: Taliban
Legalisation of drugs is not the answer. Education is. Educate people that they don't need them, and that if anything they are nothing but a road to ruin, and you eliminate the demand for drugs.
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