zzzzzzzzzzz

[Seil Blubber]

Looks like you pressed a button there Eric.

[NickB]

.

And MacB, feel free to disclose my unique isp and how many votes have been cast by it. I think you'll find that its none!

Eh? The Longshanks identity has already posted from no less than 149 unique IP addresses, Shankers - so not sure what you are on about.

I am sure I have explained this before but . . . . most ISPs allocate IP addresses dynamically, which means that you get a new IP address each time you connect.

This means it is very difficult or impossible to prove multiple identities by IP address, as you can post from one IP address, reconnect and post as a different identity from a different IP address. The corollory of this is that members with the same ISP may occasionally post from the same IP address another member was been allocated in a previous session. By laboriously analysing posting patterns and IP addresses and seeing who is posting from the same block of IP addresses and when it is sometimes possible to make a good guess, but it can never be proved one way or another, which is why many forums are riddled with users with multiple identities. This one I suspect is no better or worse than most, it is just something admins take for granted.

Also - there is no way at all votes in polls can be correlated with IP addresses. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

[Eric the Viking]

Longshanks I think you need to brush up on your history (and spelling it's 'traitor' not 'traiter') before you start hurling insults.

[spiderman]

I think we let misspellings and typos pass, Eric. We all make mistakes. Even you, with your "cleanising" (unless the Americans have further corrupted our fine language!) (note that Shankers corrected your error without comment). The fact remains that your statement that the Black Watch are traitors is likely to be offensive to many and you should probably retract it rather than defend the indefensible. Plus the fact that Shanker's account of history seems correct. Best stick to old Viking history - nothing to be ashamed of there, eh?!

[NickB]

But the Black Watch were traitors to whom? This was after the Act of Union.

Exactly. They were traitors to the Jacobite cause, which rapidly became a lost cause . . . but they weren't traitors to the then legitimate government of the UK, so legally they weren't traitors. So everyone is right. (Even Longshanks).

Isn't there a weel kent song which goes:

"Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain . . . "

So - I say it is time for a new Seil tartan; no military connections, no feudal connotations, something looking forward rather than back, which is surely what Scotland needs at this point in her history.

[Eric the Viking]

I said the tartan was a traitor's tartan not that all soldiers serving in the regiment from past to present are traitors - which is an entirely different thing.

I stand by what I say - the regiment - which adopted the named 'black watch' because of it's darkly clad, locally recruited, government lackey's was originally given this name by the people it spied on - not by the army.

What English King? The king was British

Well not exactly Shankers old bean. Both Hanovarian (the clue's in the name) monarchs at the time George I and II ........ were surprise, surprise ........German.

Ethnic cleansing; grow up! the Highlands were cleared by the landowners who were Scottish (the clan chiefs owned the land not the English, the Crown or anyone else). It was us who moved the tenants.

Again Shanker's you're way off the mark with this one too. Sure tenants were cleared off the land to make way for sheep in the 'Clearances' in another shameful chapter of our history which is well documented. However, what I am referring to is the systematic persecution of the highland clans who were sympathetic to the rightful Stuart claim on the crown which took place well before sheep and culminated in Culloden and its aftermath.

Ethnic cleansing is a euphemism referring to the persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing of members of an ethnic minority by a local majority to achieve ethnic homogeneity in majority-controlled territory.

Both Cumberland and Wade were complicit as was the government.

After Culloden Cumberland gave orders for "No Quarter Given": in other words 'none shall live'. His army marched on and killed every wounded Highlander left on the field - and then made his way to Inverness to carry on the fight. Raiding homes looking for Jacobites, all were labelled as one and swiftly put either to the end of a musket - bayonet - hangman's rope or burnt alive in their homes. Women, children, old and young, his orders were "No Quarter Given" - and none was.

......................................Meanwhile in Westminister in reply to Cumberland 's reports a message was sent stating "It will be no great mischief if all should fall".

Most modern military historians aver that the issuing of the 'give no quarter' order to the Duke of Cumberland's army is an unforgettable stain on the character of the British army. The cruelties, tortures and atrocities visited upon the Jacobites and their supporters and many of the uninvolved men, women and children unfortunate enough to live in the area, are all the more horrifying when one considers that this battle took place 260 years ago - just 73 years before the birth of Victoria.

The "Jacobite Rebellion” brought the government forces down on anyone who was thought to have participated in the cause. Many houses and castles were torched. Hundreds were executed (after brief trials in England), 700 died in the prison ships in the river Thames in London, a thousand were sold as slaves to the American plantations and whole communities pillaged and sent into the hills for no crime other than an inability to speak English

And then there's the draconian laws which were designed to exterminate the clan culture: Gaelic - was banned and marked as a hanging offence if spoken, the wearing of tartan was also made a hanging offence, no weapons could be carried, no playing of the bagpipes, and even the Bible was not allowed to be learnt in our own language, never mind written. . . . the total extinction of the ties between clan chief and clan. In short the Highland way of life destroyed

. . If that's not ethnic cleansing - what is?

Narrowminded rubbish? - Regretably it's all too true.

Are you a holocaust denier too Longshanks?


Isn't there a weel kent song which goes:

God grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy Mighty aid,
Victory bring,
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

[Pentlandpirate]

20 million Scots in the world.

Only 5 million Scots in Scotland

Ethnic cleansing did future generations of Scots a massive favour! Look at what they went on to achieve. I say again where would the Scots be if it was not for Culloden? Am I so wrong to suggest it might have been much like 'modern day' Afghanistan?

[Seventhseil]

Obviously Penty we would have been completely unable to cope.....there would be have been anarchy. Are you Douglas Alexander in disguise? Stop with the "Scots can't/Couldn't run Scotland" no one suggests that any other part of Britain could'nt govern its self.... As for the Kilt/ Tartan crap, the Kilt was made up by Sir Walter Scott, unionist and runner up of debts while tartan is a bit old hat.....

[NickB]

.
So much for my attempt to pour oil on troubled waters . . . just stop it you lot, it was hundreds of years ago ffs.

Scotland is developing a new identity. We have a parliament that is admired by many darn sarf as a model of how a parliament should work compared to the Westminster trough, we have engineering expertise that will allow us to lead the way in renewable energy, the value of the Euro means we are currently having one of the best tourist seasons in recent years and the weather has been pretty good overall as well with a long range forecast for a great Summer.

Do we really need to rehash 1700 - 1745 over and over again? Is it not possible to move on?

[Pentlandpirate]

No don't stop it Admin. You stifled it before and almost lost everyone. Now you've got people engaging again, you should be content. You would have Freedom for Scotland, now lets have freedom of speech.

Seventh, No I'm not of the "Scots can't/Couldn't run Scotland" brigade. I'm just saying look at the disproportionate contribution the Scots made to the advance of mankind. I'm suggesting it might be the case it happened only because they were cast out into the wider world.

Anyhow global warming will kill off the kilt.

[NickB]

.

No don't stop it Admin.

I said you lot stop it, I didn't say I was going to stop it.

I just think this endless 300 year old chip on the shoulder is a trifle tedious. You carry on among yourselves as long as you want.

[longshanks]

and even the Bible was not allowed to be learnt in our own language, never mind written.

Cripes.
You're well off on one Pieman; reminds me of the good old days.
I underlined part of your quote above as I am stunned that you claim family lineage back to the pre Proscription days. Your language!!!! You're not another of those wallahs who claim heritage "by choice" eg I am Gaelic and a Highlander of many generations by choice.
Get over it...you are what you are, not some romantic vision of what you wish you were. I seem to recall that there's someone not so far away who claims to be a Scot by choice.
Always remember Pieman that the 45 was an attempt to change the monarchy of the U.K. The Jacobites never claimed to be fighting for an independent Scotland but were merely leading a rebellion against the lawful Royal Family of the U.K. Remember that as many English fought for the Jacobites as against them and as many Scots fought on the field of Colluden on the U.K Government side as for the insurgents.
Luckily the Government put down the uprising, punished the terrorist supporters and the UK then went on to prosper, the Highlands in particular thanks to the communication network built by the great General Wade and the investment coming from London and Edinburgh who would never have invested in the Highlands before as it was a lawless and dangerous place.
....ref tartan for Seil:
No way, one only wears one's clan or regimental tartan. Modern made up tartans are for the lower classes. Wearing the tartan of a clan or regiment to which you do not belong is seen as socially discraceful.
Shame "admin" has dropped out of this discussion. Better than closing it down as he used to.

Shankers (by choice)

[Eric the Viking]

Just what I expected from you shankers more anglocentric BS.

rebellion against the lawful Royal Family of the U.K

Again my narrow-minded friend you seem to be ignorant of your own ignorance.

If you had any grasp of history you would realise how hypocritical your cherry picked statements are. William & Mary assumed the crown in a 'rebellion against the lawful Royal Family' of the UK. Would you have hung, drawn and quartered them for this act of treason?

[longshanks]

Just what I expected from you shankers more anglocentric BS........
William & Mary assumed the crown in a 'rebellion against the lawful Royal Family'

Pieking, why are you so upset to have your heather tinted version of history corrected? Does it threaten your false sense of grievance. I say "false" because only a descendent of the Gaels can possibly harbour a grievance at the demise of their ancient culture. You a descendent of the Gaels ??? ......or an incomer to the Gaeltachd who wishes to be associated to a history to which he has no true association.
......
William and Mary (directly in line of succession) were invited to take the crown by our Government, because the vast majority of the U.K population were heartily sick of the Stuarts and their threat to return the U.K to a church and crown dominated backwater.
The Glorious Revolution was a very important step in the establishment of the U.K as the pre-eminent world power that we became and sustained for over two centures.
......
By the way, not that there is anything wrong with the English (some of my best friends are), where have I been Anglocentric in my views? Bit hard for me to do that seeing as I'm a Scot (two generations away from gaelic speaking great grandparents).
.........

loyal to the English king,

George I and II ........ were surprise, surprise ........German.

Any shortbread flavoured argument you make, oh ye of Danish ancestry, is made very doubtful in its accuracy when you can't decide yourself on the veracity of your own "facts".
......
Again I say NO to a mickey mouse Seil tartan. Wear the tartan of your ancestors or your regiment, or wear none at all.
I have now scrapped the idea of a uniform from my manifesto and replaced it with a special budget item of free drinks every Friday at the Hall between 6 and 7 pm to encourage community interaction.

Long Plaid (wrapped by choice)

[Pentlandpirate]

I have now scrapped the idea of a uniform from my manifesto and replaced it with a special budget item of free drinks every Friday at the Hall between 6 and 7 pm to encourage community interaction

Now, how come no one thought of that before? At last we have some sensible politics!

[canUsmellthat]

Shift the hall to Balvicar!!!

[MonaLott]

No, leave the hall - and the garden! - where it is and build the new Seil Assembly rooms and offices at Balvicar, the sensible central capital of the community. And forget about kilts - I agree with Penty - we should be futuristic and recognise that, with global warming about to turn us into a tropical isle, we need a cooler garb. I suggest grass skirts.

[khartoumteddy]

If you had any grasp of history you would realise how hypocritical your cherry picked statements are. William & Mary assumed the crown in a 'rebellion against the lawful Royal Family' of the UK. Would you have hung, drawn and quartered them for this act of treason?[/quote]

aint history grand

The true Scots are now the Irish
What were the old Anglo Saxons are mostly the modern Scots
which makes you probably more english than the english a true mongrel race
we have absorbed Angles Saxons Jutes Hugenots French Germans and several others
latterly jews polish indians rhodesians turks greeks cypriots and a whole load more.
So if i am English with Scots Welsh and Irish ancestry probably im as Scots as you are.

Certainly one argument for considering european membership

local matters are still local though

if I was quiet I was on holiday Aint the Midges great at this time of year

TEDDY Anglo Scot (European by choice) :English Flag :English Flag :English Flag :jack :jack :jack :jack

[Beetlejuice]

As a "voyeur", I'm getting somewhat zzzzzzzzzzzzzz with all this reiteration of the '45, Englishness/Scottishness, who has a right to claim Scottish identity, whether people are posting from multiple e-mail addresses etc. etc. Been there before guys. This thread started off quite interesting. Could you get back to the plot?

[NickB]

who has a right to claim Scottish identity

I emailed the SNP to ask this question. This was their reply:

Under our draft 'Constitution for a Free Scotland'; "citizenship shall be open to anyone who is permanently resident in Scotland at the date of independence, to anyone who was born in Scotland or either of whose parents was born in Scotland, and to such other persons as the Parliament of Scotland may prescribe. Everyone permanently resident in Scotland at the date of independence shall have the right to stay in Scotland as long as he or she wishes, even if he or she does not take up Scottish citizenship."