Is this a wind up or a wind-up?
Does raw human faeces, delivered by the yachties, cause any problem in our local marine environment?
Ban yachts from Seil waters ?
Moderator: Herby Dice
It is likely that NickB's statement that yachties discharge sewage into the sound/Balvicar Bay "a couple of dozen times a year tops" is a really gross underestimate, given the number of nights that dinghies lie off the backs of boats. Similarly, his certainty that ship-derived sewage doesn't cause any harm, plus DonnieC's confidence that the local shellfish poisoning episodes are entirely natural, don't take account of the fact that internationally the algal blooms which lead to these episodes are frequently observed to be associated with excesses of phosphate, nitrate and other "nutrient" pollutants which can be caused by man-made inputs of things like sewage and fish-farm pollution and agricultural run-off.So the picture isn't that clear.................nor regrettably is the water..............!! One thing's for sure - if the new sewage system works right, the local water and seafood quality should improve because sewage from homes/hotels etc will currently be the main problem. In the future, the yachties will have to clean up too, eh Nick? Caravanners don't throw their sewage around the environment - why should yachties?.......
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NickB
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Well . . .
.
The picture seems to be clear enough to the legislators, as there is currently no planned legislation to require the fitting of holding tanks for pleasure vessels operating in UK inshore waters. They seem to be far more concerned about drinking on boats.
Holding tanks can be fitted of course, and used when the boat is in sheltered inshore waters then pumped out offshore. However, it would be very difficult to introduce holding tank legislation without creating a network of pump-out stations, which isn't going to happen.
Most skippers are fairly environmentally aware anyway and if the boat does not have a holding tank they do tend to minimise the use of the heads when in a shallow anchorage, preferring to wait until they are under way in deeper waters - and most visiting yachts only stay a night in the bay.
Here's what the Green Blue environmental awareness initiative by the British Marine Federation and the Royal Yachting Association has to say on the issue:
- NickB
The picture seems to be clear enough to the legislators, as there is currently no planned legislation to require the fitting of holding tanks for pleasure vessels operating in UK inshore waters. They seem to be far more concerned about drinking on boats.
Holding tanks can be fitted of course, and used when the boat is in sheltered inshore waters then pumped out offshore. However, it would be very difficult to introduce holding tank legislation without creating a network of pump-out stations, which isn't going to happen.
Most skippers are fairly environmentally aware anyway and if the boat does not have a holding tank they do tend to minimise the use of the heads when in a shallow anchorage, preferring to wait until they are under way in deeper waters - and most visiting yachts only stay a night in the bay.
Here's what the Green Blue environmental awareness initiative by the British Marine Federation and the Royal Yachting Association has to say on the issue:
For more info on The GreenBlue click hereDisposal of Boat Sewage - The Legal Situation
The disposal of sewage at sea is regulated by IMO through Annex IV of the MARPOL 73/78 convention. This does not apply to small craft carrying less than 15 passengers. However, there may be local regulations or bylaws that cover internal waters. Internal waters are those waters that are landward of the ‘baseline’ which joins prominent points of land along the coast – estuaries, etc.
Disposal of sewage at sea is therefore a value judgment. The Green Blue would advise that yachtsmen adhere to the principles of best practice which are set out in the following section.
Any sewage discharge into an inland waterways is offensive and prohibited by law on most waterways. On entering inland waterways, navigation authorities require that sea toilets be sealed. This is regulated under the Boat Safety Scheme. Sea toilets must be diverted into holding tanks, and any overboard discharge line sealed, usually by switching off a valve present in the discharge line.
There are no restrictions on discharging greywater from sinks, showers etc, neither is this an issue anywhere in Europe. However, the Green Blue would recommend minimising the use of strong cleaning chemicals on board as a best practice measure.
Basic Principle:
Do not discharge a sea toilet where doing so would affect water quality or harm the amenity value of the local waters
Coastal Advice
In the open sea, well away from land, waste will be quickly diluted and dispersed by wave actions and currents. Therefore only empty holding tanks into a proper shore facility or into the sea while underway at least 3 miles offshore.
In areas of poor flushing such as estuaries, inlets and marinas, make use of shore side facilities, holding tanks and pump out facilities or a portable toilet
Chemical toilets may use toxic substances and should only be emptied ashore into the regular sewage system. Plan ahead as they can be difficult to carry, especially at low tide, and few pump out facilities will accept chemical toilet waste.
In marinas, use shore side facilities and brief your crew to do likewise.
If you regularly use your boat in such inshore areas, consider fitting and using a holding tank.
Do not empty a chemical toilet into the sea
When visiting new sites, give consideration to the environmental sensitivity of the area before using your sea toilet. Avoid discharging within crowded anchorages, near amenity beaches or close to commercial shell fish beds
Boats manufactured outside the UK may not have the correct ISO fittings for UK pump out stations, so check when purchasing your craft that it complies with BS EN ISO 8099.
Inland Advice
All sea toilets must be sealed when entering inland waters.
Whilst it is tempting to use formaldehyde, deodorises and other chemicals in your holding tank, try to avoid it if possible.
Chemical toilets may toxic substances and should only be emptied ashore into the regular sewage system. Plan ahead as they can be difficult to carry and not all pump-out facilities and marinas will accept chemical toilet waste.
With regard to regulations applying overseas, it is suggested that advice is sought from the Royal Yachting Association or British Marine Federation.
- NickB
NickB
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Eric the Viking
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longshanks
A wee response to DoonieC's and NickB's recent posts:
Donnie - the toxins found in the waters in April could well have come from the antifoulants, paints etc of the recently returned yachts.
NickB - you clearly state that human faeces cause no problems to the marine environment. I sure hope no-one craps on your scallops next time you're enjoying a meal in the English pub!
Also; your RYA quote states quite clearly that boats should not discharge their toilets within three miles of the coast and certainly not anywhere remotely near where shellfish are farmed. You openly admit that yachties have been dischargibg into Seil Sound and Balvicar Bay!
But, lets not get all flustered about this issue. Here's a way forward:
El Presidente Alex should nationalise all sail boats in Scottish waters and allow "the Scottish people" to use "what is rightfully a Scottish resource". That way we won't have the sad waste of capital which we see in Balvicar Bay and Feochan ie scores of yachts appear in late April, sit there for four months doing diddley squat and then disappear again in September - what a waste! When was the last time you saw one of the fifty or so yachts in Feochan actually off its mooring and sailing? Same applies to Balvicar - there are a dozen or so there now and only a couple have left their moorings (once each) since April!
Finally, as an aside, does anyone find it strange that both the leader of the Soviet Socialist Republic of Scotland, and his deputy are not only named after fish but are also short-arses? Maybe that's why they're scared of global warming. Just a thought.
ps If the administrator of this forum could read that he'd probably give me a yellow card for being "shortist". I would, of course, appeal on the grounds that he is shortest.
Donnie - the toxins found in the waters in April could well have come from the antifoulants, paints etc of the recently returned yachts.
NickB - you clearly state that human faeces cause no problems to the marine environment. I sure hope no-one craps on your scallops next time you're enjoying a meal in the English pub!
Also; your RYA quote states quite clearly that boats should not discharge their toilets within three miles of the coast and certainly not anywhere remotely near where shellfish are farmed. You openly admit that yachties have been dischargibg into Seil Sound and Balvicar Bay!
But, lets not get all flustered about this issue. Here's a way forward:
El Presidente Alex should nationalise all sail boats in Scottish waters and allow "the Scottish people" to use "what is rightfully a Scottish resource". That way we won't have the sad waste of capital which we see in Balvicar Bay and Feochan ie scores of yachts appear in late April, sit there for four months doing diddley squat and then disappear again in September - what a waste! When was the last time you saw one of the fifty or so yachts in Feochan actually off its mooring and sailing? Same applies to Balvicar - there are a dozen or so there now and only a couple have left their moorings (once each) since April!
Finally, as an aside, does anyone find it strange that both the leader of the Soviet Socialist Republic of Scotland, and his deputy are not only named after fish but are also short-arses? Maybe that's why they're scared of global warming. Just a thought.
ps If the administrator of this forum could read that he'd probably give me a yellow card for being "shortist". I would, of course, appeal on the grounds that he is shortest.
Concise,
I agree with Nick in that there is no serious problem with local shellfish and ecoli although it has happened in the past. The waters around the island are classed as 'A' and seasonal 'A/B' If shellfish are in water very close to a raw sewerage outfall it will cause serious problems to the consumer.
Most growers are responsble and realise the public health hazards they could unleash on their customers. Most growers now have access to depuration units which do not alter the flavour of the shellfish at all unless artificial seawater is used (my opinion!)
Ecoli counts go down in the winter as the water temperature falls markedly and it struggles to survive.
In the summer the count may increase due to higher water temperatures but the extra ultra violet in the sunlight kills it off. This is what is used in depuration units.
Not only does ecoli come from human sources it also comes from sheep/cattle etc and reaches the sea after periods of rain draining into the sea. Ecoli counts can increase markedly for a short while after periods of rain.
To Eric,
In the sea - which is why The CE recommend shellfish farms should be more the one mile from a fin fish farm.
To Longshanks,
There is categorically no evidence to suggest that algal toxins are carried around in paints and antifouling. The latter is after all supposed to deal with marine organisms causing them not to form on marine hulls.
Algal toxins occur naturally and normally anywhere in the sea and in fresh water, usually, but not always, in the summer. Most are completely harmless to humans but others can, at the very worst, cause death.
This is probably the source of the saying ......... eat only when there's an 'r' in the month!
There was a problem in the late 80's/ early 90's with antifouling which contained Tri Butyl Tin - TBT which was extremely efficient and was used universally by all boats of all sizes and also it coated the nets of fin fish farms to stop marine growth on them. It caused no harm to the fish - seemingly?
Because of the major problems it caused to shellfish both in farms and in the wild it was banned - or was supposed to be! I understand it is still used in certain circumstances under license!
Despite the vast majority of the contents peoples toilets going into the sea untreated around Seil it's not as bad as people fear but that is still not an excuse for the practise to continue.
Enjoy your local shellfish!!!!
DonnieC
I agree with Nick in that there is no serious problem with local shellfish and ecoli although it has happened in the past. The waters around the island are classed as 'A' and seasonal 'A/B' If shellfish are in water very close to a raw sewerage outfall it will cause serious problems to the consumer.
Most growers are responsble and realise the public health hazards they could unleash on their customers. Most growers now have access to depuration units which do not alter the flavour of the shellfish at all unless artificial seawater is used (my opinion!)
Ecoli counts go down in the winter as the water temperature falls markedly and it struggles to survive.
In the summer the count may increase due to higher water temperatures but the extra ultra violet in the sunlight kills it off. This is what is used in depuration units.
Not only does ecoli come from human sources it also comes from sheep/cattle etc and reaches the sea after periods of rain draining into the sea. Ecoli counts can increase markedly for a short while after periods of rain.
To Eric,
In the sea - which is why The CE recommend shellfish farms should be more the one mile from a fin fish farm.
To Longshanks,
There is categorically no evidence to suggest that algal toxins are carried around in paints and antifouling. The latter is after all supposed to deal with marine organisms causing them not to form on marine hulls.
Algal toxins occur naturally and normally anywhere in the sea and in fresh water, usually, but not always, in the summer. Most are completely harmless to humans but others can, at the very worst, cause death.
This is probably the source of the saying ......... eat only when there's an 'r' in the month!
There was a problem in the late 80's/ early 90's with antifouling which contained Tri Butyl Tin - TBT which was extremely efficient and was used universally by all boats of all sizes and also it coated the nets of fin fish farms to stop marine growth on them. It caused no harm to the fish - seemingly?
Because of the major problems it caused to shellfish both in farms and in the wild it was banned - or was supposed to be! I understand it is still used in certain circumstances under license!
Despite the vast majority of the contents peoples toilets going into the sea untreated around Seil it's not as bad as people fear but that is still not an excuse for the practise to continue.
Enjoy your local shellfish!!!!
DonnieC
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Eric the Viking
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Eric the Viking
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Bout time we had a bit of joined up government then?
SEPA, ABDC, FRS, CEC, SNH et al- this fish farming lark seems a bit of a gravy train for the men in suits?
I'm all for sensible regulation, sampling and controls - but it seems to me that it would make sound economic sense and increase efficiency, productivity and traceability if one Scottish based organisation could deal with this significant industry.
SEPA, ABDC, FRS, CEC, SNH et al- this fish farming lark seems a bit of a gravy train for the men in suits?
I'm all for sensible regulation, sampling and controls - but it seems to me that it would make sound economic sense and increase efficiency, productivity and traceability if one Scottish based organisation could deal with this significant industry.
Om jeg hamrer eller hamres,
ligefuldt så skal der jamres!
ligefuldt så skal der jamres!
Correction to my last post - for Raera please read Raera Forest.
In discussion with my better half she reminded me that there was also a problem years ago in Loch Charn, seemingly/allegedly to do with pesticdes.
I couldn't agree more with Eric, there is far too much duplication in certain government quarters.
Front page of the Oban Times a few weeks ago presented the situation at Integrin, Barcaldine where they lost the algal testing contract to CEFAS in Weymouth!
This has caused lay offs and part time working for the staff. They still do the ecoli classification but surely all testing on Scottish shellfish should be done in Scotland and not virtually as far south in England as you could get. It is Scottish government money that is paying for it after all.
In discussion with my better half she reminded me that there was also a problem years ago in Loch Charn, seemingly/allegedly to do with pesticdes.
I couldn't agree more with Eric, there is far too much duplication in certain government quarters.
Front page of the Oban Times a few weeks ago presented the situation at Integrin, Barcaldine where they lost the algal testing contract to CEFAS in Weymouth!
This has caused lay offs and part time working for the staff. They still do the ecoli classification but surely all testing on Scottish shellfish should be done in Scotland and not virtually as far south in England as you could get. It is Scottish government money that is paying for it after all.
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longshanks
Looks like the Pantihose Pirate has managed to post in yet another guise...Sleepy. Lost count of your disguises now Pentland.
Great news from DonnyC on the latest closure of the shellfish beds. As he says:
"But at leat its DSP!"
'fraid I had to look that one up. Be worried, be very worried:
The Special Presidential Division (DSP, after the original French Division Spéciale Présidentielle) was an elite military force created by Zairian president Mobutu Sese Seko in 1985 and charged with his personal security. Called the Special Presidential Brigade before being enlarged, it was one of several competing forces directly linked to the president, along with the Civil Guard and Service for Action and Military Intelligence. Trained by Israeli advisors, the DSP was among the only units paid adequately and regularly. It was commanded by Mobutu's cousin, General Nzimbi Ngbale.
Personally I blame the yachties (naturally) - especially the fat black ones wearing dark glasses and smoking cheroots; spotted one of those in Balvicar the other day.
Great news from DonnyC on the latest closure of the shellfish beds. As he says:
"But at leat its DSP!"
'fraid I had to look that one up. Be worried, be very worried:
The Special Presidential Division (DSP, after the original French Division Spéciale Présidentielle) was an elite military force created by Zairian president Mobutu Sese Seko in 1985 and charged with his personal security. Called the Special Presidential Brigade before being enlarged, it was one of several competing forces directly linked to the president, along with the Civil Guard and Service for Action and Military Intelligence. Trained by Israeli advisors, the DSP was among the only units paid adequately and regularly. It was commanded by Mobutu's cousin, General Nzimbi Ngbale.
Personally I blame the yachties (naturally) - especially the fat black ones wearing dark glasses and smoking cheroots; spotted one of those in Balvicar the other day.
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Pentlandpirate
Not sure whether to be elated about confusing Longshanks into thinking that I was PP in another of his many guises?
Or be complimented in my imitation of PP however 'poor' he thought it was.
I'll do my best to be more inventive and original in future or will I simply revert to being plain, ordinary PP again?
Sleepy - well maybe
Or be complimented in my imitation of PP however 'poor' he thought it was.
I'll do my best to be more inventive and original in future or will I simply revert to being plain, ordinary PP again?
Sleepy - well maybe
I had a Schottische last night but I'm much better now thank you!
fishingboats and yatchs contrubute to the polution directly of close inshore mussel beds etc?? mussels are one of my passions i'm conserned!! -
Seventhseil
Nightstar, Below is a web site that might explain shellfish site categories. I am unsure if this is the up to date version but if not the newest version should appear shortly.
Basically, when sites are an 'A' they can sell straight from their waters. When a 'B' they must depurate before selling to the Public. If a 'C' they must relay to another 'A' site for (3 months?)
As for ferry/fishing boats/yachts etc and their contribution to local pollution again the answer is 'No,' with certain reservation!
As I tried to explain before the air and sea temperatures, sunlight and rainfall, can govern ecoli concentrations.
If all of the above craft decided to 'dump' directly near, on or over shellfish farms then there would be a serious problem. But in the small numbers of vessels using the local seaways the chances are slim. You'd have to be very unlucky.
SS, I think you know I cannot discuss individual farm classifications on this forum but in this pod there is one site which is 'A' all year round whereas there are some with a 'B' all year while others are an 'A' for some months and a 'B' in the other. The web site may help.
I was trying to get over the fact that the waters around Seil are not as bad as I think is suspected though not ideal.
I have reservations as to whether the new sewerage scheme will be the answer to it. Anybody with any inside info?
Nightstar, did you know the native oysters and shore mussels are the property of the Crown and permision to pick should be sought from Liz down the road?
Finally, I didn't actually mention that the local waters had been closed because of DSP detection. Longshanks seemed to be very fast off the mark with his post. I wonder if he has more of a vested interest in shellfish farms
http://www.food.gov.uk/scotland/safetyh ... ssscot0708
Basically, when sites are an 'A' they can sell straight from their waters. When a 'B' they must depurate before selling to the Public. If a 'C' they must relay to another 'A' site for (3 months?)
As for ferry/fishing boats/yachts etc and their contribution to local pollution again the answer is 'No,' with certain reservation!
As I tried to explain before the air and sea temperatures, sunlight and rainfall, can govern ecoli concentrations.
If all of the above craft decided to 'dump' directly near, on or over shellfish farms then there would be a serious problem. But in the small numbers of vessels using the local seaways the chances are slim. You'd have to be very unlucky.
SS, I think you know I cannot discuss individual farm classifications on this forum but in this pod there is one site which is 'A' all year round whereas there are some with a 'B' all year while others are an 'A' for some months and a 'B' in the other. The web site may help.
I was trying to get over the fact that the waters around Seil are not as bad as I think is suspected though not ideal.
I have reservations as to whether the new sewerage scheme will be the answer to it. Anybody with any inside info?
Nightstar, did you know the native oysters and shore mussels are the property of the Crown and permision to pick should be sought from Liz down the road?
Finally, I didn't actually mention that the local waters had been closed because of DSP detection. Longshanks seemed to be very fast off the mark with his post. I wonder if he has more of a vested interest in shellfish farms
http://www.food.gov.uk/scotland/safetyh ... ssscot0708
Thanks DC 
have looked at the web-site and its all as clear as Seil Sound at a low tide
Your explaination it did explane things a bit - thanks for that, as for asking Lizzie for her Mussels she said she was fine about it, as one can't eat lobster, oysters or mussels EVERY day, and is going to send me a detailed map of all the good places 
have looked at the web-site and its all as clear as Seil Sound at a low tide
Your explaination it did explane things a bit - thanks for that, as for asking Lizzie for her Mussels she said she was fine about it, as one can't eat lobster, oysters or mussels EVERY day, and is going to send me a detailed map of all the good places I.N.Y.L.S.B...................
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