"Lord Robertson"

[NickB]

And did you forget to mention any of the Scottish MP's who fiddled expenses at Westminster too?

What nationality do you think Alastair 'Flipper' Darling is?

Do you ever actually bother to read other peoples' posts before replying ?

[Innes Newton]

Jeez, yes, there were lots of them, English and Scottish in both Westminster and Holyrood. But that doesn't mean UK Government is broken, and that doesn't mean the government are corrupt. So don't exclusively blame Westminster for all your ills.

I notice Alex Salmond doesn't make much of a fuss about expenses. He's been put under scrutiny too many times for me to bother with than putting all episodes here, some older, some very recent http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scott ... ses-972571

[DonnieC]

[Innes Newton]

That's a bit ambiguous. Are you suggesting I've got my head in the sand or you have? I could say exactly the same of anyone who wants to vote Yes. You are ignoring the hard questions, you are hiding from the reality you don't want to hear, you are shutting out the comments of the opposition and blindly following a leader who knows he only has to fool you for another 151 days to win.

[NickB]

That's a bit ambiguous. Are you suggesting I've got my head in the sand or you have? I could say exactly the same of anyone who wants to vote Yes. You are ignoring the hard questions, you are hiding from the reality you don't want to hear, you are shutting out the comments of the opposition and blindly following a leader who knows he only has to fool you for another 151 days to win.

He means you are an ostrich. Personally, I would say ostrich crossed with dinosaur.

[NickB]

.

[jimcee]

I will be very surprised if I get finishing the typing of this reply before someone else puts a posting ahead of it.
However I will try.
Donald Campbell has asked me to name some discredited Holyrood politicians, and while it is indelicate to name names in a forum of this sort, my list will include some who have been found out and some who are reliant on parliamentary privelige ,or friends in high places, or whose record as an upright citizen is open to question.
So here goes - two of our former first ministers left under a cloud, and the leader of one of the smaller parties had to resign because of expense problems.
And closer to home, both our local list MSPs could not really be described as squeaky clean.
And that is only the ones known to me, who have come to light currently - there are probably other miscreants waiting in the wings. Scandals and wrong doings are not confined to the hoi polloi - human nature is unfortunately prone to exploiting the system
So, please do not be under the misapprehension that A Yes vote will clean up a corrupt system - as long as people get power they will be corrupted.

[DonnieC]

Henry MacLeish departed not having made anything from his alleged inappropriate behavior.A bit different from the Flippers of Westminster!

Now there's an excellent title for a soap - an everyday story of miscreants in SW1A 0AA!!

Anyway Jim who is the other? I dare say our

closer to home, both our local list MSPs could not really be described as squeaky clean.

- would like you to furnish the world wide web with their identities!

In my former attempts at describing Westminster as broken and corrupt I forgot to mention the 'Cash for Questions' fracas!

This behaviour may pass as normal in some circles , or, as Johan Lamont would call them 'Wee things' but I would wager that most decent people are ashamed of the antics of some of our blatently corrupt and criminal MPs who sadly think that there is one law for us commoners and none for them!

Corrupt, broken - Oh YES!

[jimcee]

Evidently being "promoted" to the House of Lords is considered to be an achievement, but I think the expression being "kicked upstairs" is probably closer to the truth.
Regarding list MSPs both of our local ones are not strangers to the law courts for past disdemeanours, which is not the type of behaviour we expect from our elected (or in this case unelected) representatives.
On the point of Corruption (or the perceived lack of it by the YES campaign) could I point out that the instances I cited are all Mac's - what does that say for the integrity of the Scots?

[jimcee]

Second list MSP's transgression were not as heinous as the one you were aware of (and seem to excuse because they were public knowledge) - no , this was more a difference of treatment of someone in public office by the courts for which the outcome for us normal citizens was more strict.
It is unfortunately the case that those in public office feel, either because they can twist an arm or two, or because they think they are impervious to the rules that govern the rest of us, that they are above the law.
And the establishment of an independent Scottish Parliament will not change that one whit.
Utopia is not up for grabs.

[NickB]

Second list MSP's transgression were not as heinous as the one you were aware of

Fine. Who was it?

[jimcee]

My, my, you are like a bull terrier with the bit between it's teeth.
You will notice that I have been very careful not to name any names in my list of (known to me) MSPs who have fallen short of the integrity we expect of our politicians.

One has to be very careful these days in making accusations by name against anyone, as courts can award punitive damages against anyone found to slander, and subsequently having it not proven by a court where the expensive lawyers hired for the defence, can have undue influence on the result.
My coffers could not withstand such an assault.

However, I feel that a clue or two might get me out of this predicament.
1) there was until recently on this forum a poetry/literature section, and on it there was a very witty poem by someone on the legal problem facing our list MSP, and how it was resolved rather more favourably than you or I would have fared. Unfortunately, that site has now disappeared, but I printed a copy at the time, because I thought it very true and witty - it is somewhere in my archives.
2) And this is probably a dead giveaway - He is involved in Agriculture and has a liking for the tartan

[Bill McDicken]

In other words, you don't know any names.


'.

[Innes Newton]

Forum rules forbid him from committing slander on Seil Chat.

[NickB]

.
Re. the other 'local list MP'

It wouldn't be Jamie McGrigor (Con) would it? He's a local list MP whose moral position has been called into question by some over his windfarm hypocrisy.

McGrigor signed a parliamentary motion in 2008 demanding rules on wind farms to end “speculative applications… threatening scenic areas”.

Three years later he signed a deal with RWE to erect 15 364ft high turbines on a hillside above Loch Awe, a deal from which he stood to make a cool £8 million.

Is this perhaps the conduct unbecoming of a list member of which you speak?

If this is what is causing your umbrage you will be pleased to know that Argyll and Bute planning have recommended it for refusal.

[jimcee]

Bill (mcDicken) has probably not been long enough around these shores to be savvy to past disdemeanours among our unappointed representatives. Not that I have anything against the list system - it is a lot fairer than first past the post, and could be chalked up as one of the positive results of devolution.
So Bill, get in touch with your drinking confederates at the pub - I am sure one of them, particularly the Cnoc Beag intelligensia will be able to fill you in on the sorry details. And while you are there you could also enquire about an expensive reading habit.
And Elaine, that Coatbridge (or thereabouts) fellow did not leave his exalted position with everyone in the party and the public extolling his virtue, and sorry to see him go. My memory is not up to recalling his demise, but it certainly was not gnashing of teeth, and pleas to reconsider.
The whole point of this particular line, and I will repeat it, is to point out that the result of a vote for Scottish Independence will not automatically result in an absence of any corruption in a future administration, and politicians, being what they are, it is inevitable that there will be a bad apple or two among the barrel, to discredit the profession. So don't vote YES for a reformation.

[NickB]

don't vote YES for a reformation.

We can hope for - or demand - greater accountability though.

So it wasn't Jamie McGrigor then ?

[Bill McDicken]

I've never met Jim so he hasn't had the chance to hear the Scot's accent I picked up as a 1 year old 59 years ago. Also having been self-employed in Scotland for most of those years I can assure Jim that I have plenty experience of "unappointed Representatives" so I don't need to be patronized.

[jimcee]

To the 3 people who have replied to my last post -
No. you will not get me to reveal the names.
I would have thought that the Cnoc Beag brigade, who appear to know everything, and take a delight in contradiction, would have been in residence here long enough to remember past misdemeanours - but maybe they don't subscribe to the Oban Times - which is the source of my information both past and present.
Bill McD - I was not intending to be patronising, but merely to excuse you of ignorance about local Argyll affairs, as I was under the impression, that you had not been resident permanently on these shores until recently, and could not be expected to keep abreast of the parochial goings-on in this part of the world.
Our mystery man fell foul of the law while behind the wheel on the public highway, and like Mrs SK was unfortunate not to have a sympathetic bobby as a witness and in this case had nothing to do with the demon drink.
I am sorry that NickB has dismantled the poetry page, otherwise I could have given you chapter and verse to the whole episode.
If this is not sufficient to allay the thirst for knowledge, could I suggest that I send a PM to those desirous of knowing the nitty-gritty 1) if that is allowed legally, and 2) if I can find out how to send a PM. Hopefully we will be able to lay this matter to rest fairly soon, although it seems to have generated a lot of visits to the site - I wonder why?

[Bill McDicken]

I wasn't aware Argyll was seeking independence Jim. I thought it was Scotland.