"Lord Robertson"

[Innes Newton]

It just hit home.

less than 1% of benefit money is fraudulently claimed, amounting to 2 billion pounds

I can't believe you said that as if 1% is acceptable to lose in proven fraud. 2 billion pounds in fraud? That's acceptable? (Actually the total benefits bill is apparently £ 167 billion) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -bill.html

This country is infested with people who make too little or no contribution and take at the expense of the hard workers who have to hand over large amounts to those who claim for every penny they can get. There are very few people who can't contribute in one way or another, but far, far too many tricked into a lifetime with no prospects due to their socialist policies.

An independent Scotland, already bloated with a higher proportion of people dependent on benefits, will only get worse, the Yes Campaign proliferated with a social class who expect more for nothing. (BTW The "Under Occupancy tax" is absolutely right. If I buy a bigger house I pay a bigger mortgage. So for people with social housing it is wrong that they have the luxury of a spare room without a contribution for the benefit, especially when there are larger families who cannot get housing). An independent Scotland with a left leaning government is going to foster a society that will be content to fester whereas a right of centre government in rUK will sort out the rot at its core with policies that have already created the fastest growing economy in the G7 and wages that are outstripping inflation.

You may deny it, but an independent Scotland will create a two tier Britain and Scots will be on the poorer side.

[NickB]

.
So legitimate benefit claimants are also committing fraud in your eyes.

Meanwhile you appear to be sanctioning the 12bn lost through corporate tax fraud.

Do you really think that is acceptable?

I really don't want to live in the same country as someone with your views.

Let's hope that after September 18th I no longer have to.

[Innes Newton]

So legitimate benefit claimants are also committing fraud in your eyes.

Where did I write that?

Meanwhile you appear to be sanctioning the 12bn lost through corporate tax fraud.

No, I don't sanction that. Read my earlier comment on that.

I really don't want to live in the same country as someone with your views

You might have to move then, because I still hope to move to Seil.

A bit of frankness and honesty shouldn't do too much harm even if it may prick personal sensitivities. But there is a massive problem at the core of our society, that is being sorted by Westminster, but is tolerated by socialist governments, that know it is where their core support comes from. The reality is that they know a promise of bigger handouts buys them votes. Lifting people out of the dependency trap is the opposite of what a socialist government wants. Vote Yes and they'll deliver you the Fool's Paradise, a fairer society where you can all be poorer.

[NickB]

You might have to move then, because I still hope to move to Seil.

Sorry, the Peoples' Committee of the Socialist Republic of Seil will be vetting all applicants.

I find it very unlikely that you will get through the selection process.

[Innes Newton]

I'll let the facts speak for themselves. If they let you in, they'll let anyone in.

[DonnieC]

Got the Crann Tara, spoke with the others - only one vetting on the agenda, excellant!

Do we have to actually meet, I mean we all know the concusion we'll come to? Oooops, better be transparent in our new independent country, not like the southern tribe who much prefer hypocracy and burial of 'papers' for their protection etc to promote their delusions of supposed grandeur and influence.

[Innes Newton]

Isolationist policies won't help Scotland either! Just as the French blockade Britain with fishermen, dock workers, truck drivers, farm workers, air traffic controller strikes, an independent Scotland will need friends in England. Significant differences between the two countries could lead to disputes like we have seen in France and Spain in particular. Scotland geographically is easily cut off.

I'm not saying that as some sort of threat, I'm just saying it is the sort of thing that could happen between England and an independent Scotland, but something that never happens when Scotland is part of the UK.

The CBI wants business to carry on unhindered by the strife and uncertainty caused by a separate Scotland and that is why it has announced it is supporting the No Campaign.

[NickB]

The CBI wants business to carry on unhindered by the strife and uncertainty caused by a separate Scotland and that is why it has announced it is supporting the No Campaign.

It seems the CBI has taken this position without consulting any of its members. Two Scottish firms have already left the CBI, and more are threatening to follow.

[DonnieC]

The Kraken Wakes;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-27077436

[Innes Newton]

Two Scottish firms have already left the CBI, and more are threatening to follow.

But not because they support the Yes campaign.

[DonnieC]

Intersting article and I so like the extract below!

http://universalserviceblog.wordpress.c ... -5-points/


"If it means Scotland separating itself from a broken and corrupt system in order to build this new fairer society, a society that can act as a template for a new way of doing things, a new way of treating each other, well I’m going to vote Yes!"

[Innes Newton]

The Yes Campaign would have you believe the UK is broken and corrupt. Exactly what do you perceive is broken and corrupt in the UK?

[DonnieC]

Westminster!

[Innes Newton]

Could you expand on that? What is broken about it, and where is the corruption?

[Bill McDicken]

Could you expand on that? What is broken about it, and where is the corruption?

Good Grief Innes!! Go and buy a newspaper, turn on your telly, or at least open your eyes man.................

[Innes Newton]

That's a Yes Campaign fuelled perception of yours. I'm accused of not giving facts on other threads but you supply none either. I don't see stories in the papers showing how the government in the UK, which includes Holyrood, is broken. What are you reading? I don't see stories of government corruption. Do you? Yes there are cases of personal fraud, and where these are found the guilty are punished. Alex Salmond also stands accused. After all politicians are human and only reflect wider society, even in Scotland.

So show me the evidence that government is broken, and that it is corrupt please.

[jimcee]

CORRUPTION
At a fair guess , based on representative numbers, the corruption in Holyrood will equal that of Westminster, and in Holyrood it has included some at the top of the tree.
This idea that everyone in Holyrood has a shining halo, and all members at Westminster have forked tails, is absurd.
Moreover, the surmise that members of an Independent Scottish Parliament would all be whiter than white, is just pie in the sky.

[Innes Newton]

Well said Jim

Let's just remember the basic FACTS.

Everything that is good in Scotland is due to the good things Holyrood is doing, and that everything BAD that is happening is due to Westminster.

This is why Independence will be so good, good, wonderfully good for Scotland, and the word 'Bad' will have to be deleted from the dictionary. Everything will be fabulous in independent Scotland. Even the sun will shine every day. So far the Yes Campaign has not mentioned one aspect of life or factor that will be less good if Scotland becomes independent. That is just unreal. And I would argue, misleading, and indeed, dishonest.

Normally we accept that as part of free speech, and things can be changed back once the truth has eventually come out, as it always does, but independence for Scotland is a permanent break. There is no way back if the peoples discover some way down the road they were had.

[DonnieC]

Jim Cunningham - name names of those corrupt in the Scottish Parliament.

Innes Newton - where the hell have you been?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... t-die.html

Maria Miller the most recent? the duck house, the moat cleaning, the 'dodgey' dossier, the suppression of the McCrone report;

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/th ... 18697.html.

The case of 'Flipper' Darling;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... enses.html

And all this from the BT brigade who expect us to trust and believe they will come good about more devolution - I wonder if the mole who spilled on the currency union is still with us?

Don't get me started on the undemocratic unelected quango of benefit scrounging Lords and Ladies of the 2nd chamber.

Just one wee cross in the YES box and we're free from this corruption and lies.

The mother of all parliaments ...!

Must get back to the leafletting in Oban - a LOT of interest and good discusion and debate.

There was a fellow poster on here - Sleepy - who has disappeared. He claimed he was from Brigadoon - are you sure it was not another of your alter egos and you're now awake after 100 years of sleep?

[Innes Newton]

I was never Sleepy.

You said the UK is broken, then Westminster is broken. It isn't. Some MP's were caught fiddling expenses. That's not government, and it's not corruption. And did you forget to mention any of the Scottish MP's who fiddled expenses at Westminster too?

Oh, no let's remember bad words, Westminster, English. Good word, Scottish.

So you don't even mention the fiddling of expenses by Scottish MP's at Holyrood because that's good (and if it is actually bad then it must have been Westminster's fault anyway )

And talk of dodgy dossiers (oh I wish we were having a laugh over a pint on this topic) what about Alex Salmond? He must have more dodgy dossiers than anyone (and probably a few questionable expenses claims too)