Seil Chat

    A forum for Seil, Luing and Easdale
Seil Skiff Project







It is currently Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:12 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 173 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:28 pm 
Quote:
Sunday 10th February 2017

The shock results of a poll jointly commissioned by the Shetland Times and The Orcadian, released today show that 67 % of the northern islanders would vote for independence...................from Scotland. The results of the poll have left the Scottish Government in Edinburgh reeling at the prospect of the islands separating from the mainland and re-newing their historical links with the Nordic countries they were once part of before being ceded to Scotland.

Gordon McPhail of the breakaway Island Freedom Party proclaimed in Lerwick the time had come for the islanders to have their own say in how to deal with the issues that are relevant to their lives. Too long, he states, they have had to suffer at the hands of incompetent, power mad politicians down in Edinburgh dictating policy that is not relevant to the unique way of life in the northern islands. 82% of Scotland's revenue from oil, gas, wind and tidal energy systems, fishing and agriculture come from the territories belonging to the islands, but the Scottish government sat so far down south only commits 8% of that revenue on sustaining the islands. Mr McPhail condemns the Scottish Government for squandering billions of Scottish Pounds on wasteful government buildings, MP's expenses and statues, and on costly full scale re-enactments of the Battle of Bannockburn on 24th June every year.

Mr McPhail is appealing to Alex Salmond for a referendum amongst the islanders in 2018 on the 1200th anniversary of the Battle of Dumbarton Rock when the Vikings defeated the Picts. Mr McPhail has promised that if there is a 'Yes' vote on Day one every 'Yes' voter will be made a multi-millionaire as the island government will generously share out the oil and gas revenues which will rightly be earned, solely by the islanders. Those who vote 'No' will be shown where the land of Promise is, in a southerly direction.

A shocked Scottish Government in Edinburgh was understood to be in crisis as the poll results were leaked to them ahead of the headlines hitting the press. Could the islanders be allowed to claim self-determination and claim all that lies within their territory? Could the revenue conveyor that the recently separated Scotland had counted on for its very survival be switched off? Is there anything that mainland Scotland could do given it's own recent history?

What Scot who voted for independence from the rest of the UK could deny the right of the islanders to have the right to separate if a majority should wish it. As Mr McPhail quipped, "We're only following the same process that the SNP followed. It is our right to self determination under the Scottish Constitution. No one can deny that to us."


Of course I have just made this up, but what if? What if Scotland gained independence, what if the people in the Orkney's and Shetlands then decided they wanted to separate, how would you feel? The islands are part of your home, yet in this scenario (but who knows what might happen) someone wants to take part of your home, and part of your security, away from you. If the people of those islands decided to separate from Scotland and take all those oil, gas, wind and tidal energy resources, fishing and agriculture off Scotland, would you support them? Would you think they were selfish? Would you demand some say in the matter, so that you might be able to say, '"No" to their demands?


I hope this starts to give you some inkling of how I feel


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:35 am 
Actually, I shouldn't be joking. It really is true that Shetland and perhaps Orkney and Caithness may choose to go on a different path to Scotland and the UK. See the real Shetland newspaper headlines http://www.shetnews.co.uk/features/scot ... ce-debate/ and http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/01/ ... s-sinclair


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:48 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:18 pm
Posts: 2540
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land (or so I'm told by some)
That is a matter for the islanders. However, it is a red herring at the moment, as there is currently no possible path or mechanism for the Northern Isles - or any other part of Scotland - to secede from either Scotland or the UK, so they do not actually have that choice.

(And frankly I doubt if there is any real appetite for it. In 2010 I attended a rally of the Shetland Independence Movement in Lerwick. Maybe 80 people stopped to watch for a few minutes, then most of them wandered off to continue their shopping while the speaker was still in full flow).

If Shetland and Orkney do want more autonomy then negotiating with an independent Scottish government at some future date is probably their best bet. In the event of a 'No' vote the last thing on the Westminster government's mind will be pandering to a couple of politically insignificant LibDem strongholds in a subdued Scotland that has been put in its place.

_________________
NickB
(site admin)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:26 pm 
Quote:
That is a matter for the islanders. However, it is a red herring at the moment, as there is currently no possible path or mechanism for the Northern Isles - or any other part of Scotland - to secede from either Scotland or the UK, so they do not actually have that choice


That's true, although there is some debate as to whether Shetland is owned by Scotland at all. But there wasn't a possible path of mechanism for Scotland to separate until it was granted to the Scottish electorate when they gave the SNP a majority. If the 'yes' campaigners for a separated state of northern islands wins, surely the Scottish government (creators of a fairer society) would agree to the islander's rights of self-determination by the same standards it set for itself? The matter is not a red herring. You cannot dismiss it just because it could not happen just yet. It is a distinct possibility.

Quote:
If the people of those islands decided to separate from Scotland and take all those oil, gas, wind and tidal energy resources, fishing and agriculture off Scotland, would you support them? Would you think they were selfish? Would you demand some say in the matter, so that you might be able to say, '"No" to their demands?


Why did you attend the Shetland Independence Movement rally? Are you some sort of undercover sabateur?


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:24 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:18 pm
Posts: 2540
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land (or so I'm told by some)
I agree that the Northern Isles could elect representatives with a mandate to negotiate a different constitutional position, but the rest of Scotland or the UK has to acknowledge that mandate.

In effect Shetland and Orkney have already voted for home rule for Scotland in a federal Britain as this is the constitutional aspiration of the LibDems . . . So a big anti-independence vote there would be a bit perverse. The best hope for more autonomy for Shetland and Orkney lies with a future Scottish government.

I attended the rally because we happened to be in Lerwick at the time, on our way to Norway.

_________________
NickB
(site admin)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:44 am 
If the people of the northern islands decided to separate from Scotland and take all those oil, gas, wind and tidal energy resources, fishing and agriculture off Scotland, would you support them? Would you think they were selfish? Would you demand some say in the matter, so that you might be able to say, '"No" to their demands?


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:36 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:18 pm
Posts: 2540
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land (or so I'm told by some)
.
If it came to a democratically organised referendum like the forthcoming Scottish one then I would accept that it was their decision, and as a non-citizen of the islands I would not expect a vote in such a process. That is a hypothetical situation however . . . we are having a real referendum next year, not a hypothetical one.

_________________
NickB
(site admin)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:05 pm 
I can't say I think it is a democratic process. Scotland is part of my country, the United Kingdom. It's part of my home. What was the democratic process that has enabled us to get to the stage where only the Scottish electorate get to vote on splitting up the UK?


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:24 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:18 pm
Posts: 2540
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land (or so I'm told by some)
Pentlandpirate wrote:
What was the democratic process that has enabled us to get to the stage where only the Scottish electorate get to vote on splitting up the UK?

That'll be the devolution referendum of 1997 and the SNP majority in the 2011 Holyrood elections.

The UK government believes that the SNP has a mandate and agrees that only the Scots should vote. Are you saying Westminster have this all wrong?

OK, let's get hypothetical for a moment and imagine that there was a UK-wide vote in the referendum. Recent polls indicate that there would in all likelihood be a majority for Scottish independence - driven by daft English voters who see Scotland as a parasitic drain on the UK. This would amount to the English deciding to throw Scotland out of the Union.

Do you think that would be fair?

_________________
NickB
(site admin)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:04 pm 
At least it would be democratic. You still don't seem to appreciate MY country is the United Kingdom. You live in a country called the United Kingdom. There are about 60 odd million people out there in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, for whom Scotland is just part of their home country. Where was their vote to grant Scotland referendum? Was that democratic?


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:22 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:18 pm
Posts: 2540
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land (or so I'm told by some)
Pentlandpirate wrote:
At least it would be democratic. You still don't seem to appreciate MY country is the United Kingdom. You live in a country called the United Kingdom. There are about 60 odd million people out there in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, for whom Scotland is just part of their home country. Where was their vote to grant Scotland referendum? Was that democratic?


You think England expelling Scotland from the Union would be democratic?

Bizarre.

Scotland's future is Scotland's to decide, better get used to it.

_________________
NickB
(site admin)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:21 pm 
Of course it is democratic if the majority of the electorate in the United Kingdom vote for it!

And if the result next year is a 'No!' will you and the SNP and the other 'Yes' campaigners shut up and get on with your lives and accept we're Better Together?


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:50 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:18 pm
Posts: 2540
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land (or so I'm told by some)
Pentlandpirate wrote:
Of course it is democratic if the majority of the electorate in the United Kingdom vote for it!

The fact that you could apparently countenance an English vote that expelled Scotland from the Union against its wishes indicates to me that you do not have the faintest idea how our democracy works, or even what the word UNION means.

I imagine you've guaranteed one or two extra YES votes on Seil with your fine opinions.

_________________
NickB
(site admin)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:04 pm 
I was 'undecided'..now I'm a NO.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:10 pm
Posts: 14
Not a pretty discussion is it? I have a feeling that nationalism never is. It has often been a case of identifying some group that you can blame for your problems. The argument then ceases to matter.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:11 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:18 pm
Posts: 2540
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land (or so I'm told by some)
oldgit wrote:
Not a pretty discussion is it? I have a feeling that nationalism never is. It has often been a case of identifying some group that you can blame for your problems. The argument then ceases to matter.


I thought the discussion had been fairly amicable, if somewhat circular - at least up to the point where there was a suggestion that Scotland could be casually expelled from the union by a 'democratic' UK-wide vote.

All the political parties have agreed that the decision is one for Scotland to make. The Edinburgh Agreement is signed, the franchise is agreed and the question is agreed. The discussion about process is over, and it is time for a discussion of the issues.

Repeated crying of 'it isn't fair' is not reasoned argument, and neither for that matter is a vague blanket condemnation of 'nationalism'.

_________________
NickB
(site admin)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:34 pm 
It is ridiculous to suggest that Scotland would be 'expelled' from the UK if the majority of the electorate in the UK voted for it. That's such negative way to put it. It would be the wishes of the majority. That would be democratic. That would be fair. Democracy isn't about pandering to all the minorities. Look at the state we've got ourselves into through doing that.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:40 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:18 pm
Posts: 2540
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land (or so I'm told by some)
Pentlandpirate wrote:
It is ridiculous to suggest that Scotland would be 'expelled' from the UK if the majority of the electorate in the UK voted for it. That's such negative way to put it. It would be the wishes of the majority. That would be democratic. That would be fair. Democracy isn't about pandering to all the minorities. Look at the state we've got ourselves into through doing that.

Aye Pirate.

I forgot what a great fan of our democracy you were, then I remembered this from a post you made in February 2010:

Pentlandpirate wrote:
Life on the edge....BNP Nick was the ONLY one, including Attenborough, who came out of Question Time, with any credibility. The rest were a disgrace.

And as for Adolf he had some good ideas. He just took them too far, like most dictators.

THIS THREAD

_________________
NickB
(site admin)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:06 pm 
I've never had any reason to see if the BNP exists in Scotland but your last comment gave me a sneaking suspicion you might be wrong. And indeed it does seem the BNP exists in Scotland http://www.bnp.org.uk/category/organiza ... ottish-bnp and I assume they join in the democratic processes just like everyone else. But I grant you they are probably only slightly more visible than the Balvicar Communist Party. You might well suggest that Stalin, Lenin,and Mao had some great ideas for mankind.

Never mind. My views are more right of centre whereas you seem to be well left of centre. It's what makes the world go round. It doesn't make us extremists, but normally we compromise on things rather than agreeing to disagree. It's a more tolerant approach, one that should allow us to get on together as one nation.

Has it ever occurred to you that if Scotland separates, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility, at some time in the future that there could be war between Scotland and England again? You probably think I am mad to suggest such a thing, but am I?


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:24 pm
Posts: 64
Location: seil
Yes

_________________
springtime


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 173 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group