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 Post subject: Signage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:42 pm 
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It seems to be a very unfortunate fact of life that whenever there is a vote casting in the offing that those involved in the outcome are subjected to a proliferation of temporary (I hope) signs urging us to support the cause they espouse.
This is almost a tit-for-tat situation that means that both sides have to try to outdo the other in blanket coverage, in the hope that sheer dominance of the scene will sway voters towards their cause.
Now I do not know who pays for this largesse in printing (certainly a godsend to those in the printing industry) but it all seems to be a complete waste of somebody's money (probably ours indirectly).
My personal vote will not have any bearing on the outcome of the coming referendum, but whoever prevails, could I suggest that there should be a motion in whichever parliament, to ban all public display of promotional material, during the run up to the election or whatever.
At the moment this situation favours the side with the biggest purse (which is undemocratic) and the money saved could usefully be used for more worthy causes.
Given the ways of the world, I expect this plea to fall on the deaf ears, of those involved in decision making.


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:18 pm 
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Here's how they do it in Dumbarton:

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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:50 pm 
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Nick,
Where do you get your stuff?.
Our island is now plastered with blue Yes signs - presumably from the free give away from the Oban shop, and including on some public signs which are doubtfully legal.
But coming back to the above picture from Dumbarton - quite a witty rejoinder, but hardly a suggestion that Scotland would be a utopia after Independence -no more food banks, no more bedroom tax, no more expensive defence spending, no more anything to do with Westminster ( which the Yes campaign have adopted as a dirty word).
In their place, the Yes campaign have based their campaign on a vision of what might be the outcome of self government, without the nitty-gritty of everyday reality - in other words a pipe dream.
Those who are expecting to have all their troubles resolved, should they win the day, with severance from the union, are in for a disillusionment, when all those promises fail to materialise.
As this is listed on your website as a debate, I would expect this contribution to be allowed airspace without censorship - if not, it suggests that any contrary views, under independence, would be seriously repressed.
I will close with a slogan which should probably have hade more prominence in the current diversion from the scheme of things - UK -OK


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:00 pm 
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jimcee wrote:
As this is listed on your website as a debate, I would expect this contribution to be allowed airspace without censorship - if not, it suggests that any contrary views, under independence, would be seriously repressed.


Jim,

You are always banging on about censorship on this site.

As far as I am aware I have never censored any of your remarks, nor has Herby.

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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:50 pm 
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Uk-Ok - let's forget censorship for the moment - as you did nor reply to any of my other points could I put forward this synopsis of the campaign as it is until today.
Alex Samond knew that he had a minority support at the beginning of the campaign and reckoned that it would take a considerable amount of time to convince the "don't know's" so opted for a long time lag. He hedged his bets by opting for Devo Max to be included in the choice, and this would probably been the major option chosen if it had been included. .
However David Cameron with the opinion of some of his advisers (some of whom have been ill chosen) refused this option, and as the selfsame advisers also insisted that the NO majority was enough to defeat the bid for Independence, little thought was put into how to conduct the campaign - I think this was a serious error of judgement on his part.
After that initial setting out of the stall there was a desultory reaction to the campaign for a long period of time - how can one keep things at fever pitch for such a long spell?
In this period all sorts of things were promised by the YES side and refuted by the NO side - of which practically none have been resolved specifically, and are open to protracted negotiation should there be a YES majority. It is significant here to note that John Swinny kept a back seat when dubious financial statements were trotted out by his boss.
The media now enter the fray and sensing a narrowing of the division between the two sides, start to report on the opinions of the various protagonists at grass roots level. At this stage there is a big push by the YES side to bring on board Labour dissidents with the promise of voting YES will mean that they can revert to Labour -, come the first Scottish election. This has amounted in sufficient movement for ONE poll to suggest a slight majority for the YES side.
This has resulted in the NO side realising that they have not been positive enough (and relying on the negative outcome) and currently bringing up the big guns to try to redress the balance.
So, to sum up -so far - and who knows what will happen in the closing days - the YES side have relied on visions of what might happen - a pipe dream- and the NO campaign have been too complacent in thinking that there was nothing to worry about.
While still not condoning the actions of either side I still maintain that UK -OK


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:50 pm 
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Hi Jim, can I pull you back to your original topic. i.e. Signage.
I guess you've not been caught up in the rather infantile fun and delight of trying to outdo the opposition by making a louder noise / bigger display in order to push your cause. It's been part of the democratic process since they first thought up the idea of elections. ( though you are probably right that it won't make a lot of difference to the result )
Also, I don't think you've noticed that all the large wooden "YES" signs are homemade and paid for by the good folk who made them, if you look you'll see them all over Scotland. ( if you want you can borrow the template from the "YES" Shop in Oban!. )
On the other hand the even bigger "NO" boards that have recently popped up in fields etc. are quite clearly professionally produced and are being handed out at great expense to anybody willing to nail one to a fence.
So, to answer your question, it's really the "NO" camp that's wasting your money.

:yes


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:44 pm 
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Come off it Bill.
Your large white and blue wooden signs may well be constructed by those with DIY capabilities, and entirely self financed.
But apart from these , you try doing a headcount of all the smaller (and some not all that small) printed ones and I will be very surprised if the ratio of YES to NO is not about 3 - 1. This now includes car and window stickers which are proliferating like midges on a calm humid say.
So on signage I would suggest that YES are spending more - and probably rightly so - they have a higher hill to climb.
But I come back to my original point - the only winners in this tit-for - tat proliferation are the printers who not only produce the signage but all this extra propaganda landing on our doorstep almost daily - and there's another benefitter from this shenanigan - the Royal Mail.
Cynically, when things are a bit slack, perhaps the printing unions and the Royal mail get together and lobby for an election or referendum to boost their output, and given the rather low esteem of politicians, perhaps they are easy prey to a bit of suggestion. Please do not take that last sentence seriously - it was just an attempt to lighten a subject which has been plagued by gravitas.
And I still think the UK is OK


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:45 pm 
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Hi again Jim, it may interest you to know that the big "YES" on our garage is indeed homemade. the "yes" stickers on our cars were bought, as was the saltire windsock. The "SALTIRE YES" flying above our house was bought by another regular on this forum and is proudly displayed on a flagpole made by me. The only reason there appears to be a lot more "YES" signs is that most supporters are similarly inspired to their cause and happy to do their bit. I'd like to hear of a single "NO" supporter who didn't just have the stuff handed to them. If you can identify such an individual I'll happily concede the point.
And anyway, I've not come across an election yet where the printers and Royal Mail haven't received a windfall, so that can't be a cause for complaint as it's simply democracy at work, surely I don't need to remind you that in many states today the printing of political pamphlets is a very serious offence.
Incidentally, The hills both camps are trying to climb are looking pretty level recently, Hence the sudden appearance of the Westminster Top Brass to try and steady the "NO" Juggernaut before it comes off the rails.

:yes :D


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:01 pm 
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Sometimes I spend ages typing out a reply to a posting, interrupt it to have a meal, come back to it later, finish it off, submit it and find it has disappeared into cyberspace.
Such has been the case with my last attempt at a reply to B. Dicken
So I shall not attempt to go through the same lengthy reply which he is strictly due, but will condense it a bit.
Firstly - a headcount of YES/NO banners ,stickers, etc, hereabouts would suggest a hotbed of YES support for your cause.
Not all supplied without charge - mostly from the coffers of the YES campaign apart from a few zealous individuals like B Dicken who are handy with a jigsaw and a paintbrush.
However I am heartened by the fact that 75% of the population have not indulged in this display of support for their espoused cause.
Hopefully. when the dust settles in a week's time we shall all be able to resume our lives without rancour under whatever regime wins the day.
Bill Dicken, by his actions, has decided his entry on the ballot paper, as have I, and nothing intervening will affect our decisions, so it is the undecided and waverers who will determine the outcome.
This is not a political arm twisting, but simply to re-iterate a previous mantra -UK is OK


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:53 am 
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Hi Jim. Nice try, removing the "Mc" from my name won't turn me into a supporter of Project Fear, because I still firmly believe that a nation like the Scots should be governed by the people they vote for and not go through the often repeated wasted effort of going to the polls and having their wishes drowned out by the South East of England. Then the Scots can choose their own destiny with their own interests at heart.
You are correct that the "YES" folk are more zealous and inventive than the "NO" lot, this is why the polls are neck and neck, an extraordinary achievement when you consider the enormous clout that The British Establishment can wield when it feels threatened.
This "Establishment" is a longstanding combination of Government/Newspapers/Banks/Big Business/Public Schools/Old Wealth, etc. that has operated in it's own self interest for centuries. It is to this "Establishment" that we have been "bending the knee" to for centuries! We really could do much better.
And yes, I do hope as you do that when the party is over (and we've sobered up) we can all carry on without regret in a courteous and civilized manner (and look forward to a much brighter future in an Independent Scotland). After we've removed all the signage of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:41 pm 
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Bill Mc
You may have been bending your knee for yonks ( and maybe even touching the forelock for all I know) but I have never subscribed to this practice, and I would suggest that the Scots are as thrawn as anyone when it comes to subservience.
While not wishing to quote actual statistics, I would suggest that Scotland is punching above it's weight when it comes to supplying residents to stay in 10 Downing Street, and presumably in your hopefully more enlightened times in the future, anyone of Scottish birth will still be eligible to follow on the tradition and run what is currently known as UK.
And what of the claim that it is Tory England that rules the roost - In my lifetime (which is slightly longer than yours) - again I am not reliant in hard and fact statistics - but I would hazard a guess that at least half that time I have been ruled by a Labour administration - and that largely due to the Scottish contribution.


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:30 pm 
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Quote:
and I would suggest that the Scots are as thrawn as anyone when it comes to subservience.

Is this not why the idea of Independance appeals to so many of our countrymen?.

:yes


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:41 pm 
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Aye, but some of them are also enraptured by spinners of fanciful dreams.


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:56 pm 
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I had a nasty turn at the surgery this afternoon :-?

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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:30 am 
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Dr. No perchance ????

:yes


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:50 am 
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Surgery signs now down apparently.

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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:09 pm 
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I don't want to get into a debate about who took whose poster down but I have to say that in the area Kilmelford to Knipoch, Kilninver to Eilean a Beach the vast majority of the YES posters on sign posts were done by me.

I also have to add that at no time did I remove any no material of any kind from anywhere.

I also have to add that particularly around Kilninver and the Scammadale road end there are more posters have been replaced than anywhere else. Last night, for example, all 6 were removed! One was held in place by stainless steel ties and these were cut by some implement used for cutting metal!

It is legitimate to exercise ones democratic right to display such signs at occasions like these. Their removal is a criminal act namely theft/vandalism and on one occasion locally aggrevated tresspass!

The matter was reported to the police and I'm informed 2 of the alleged offenders have been spoken to.

Signs actually on road verges are not permitted and the 'no thanks' ones at Berndrommin and near Kilninver House do not comply with what is permitted! These should be within the owners property!

Subject to local gossip and rumour I was not the 3 youths nor was I 'some old guy' (very hurtful!) who took the latter one down - it was the cows in the field and when I photed it I realised I'd be in the frame for the damage. So much so, the rumour went around again that the two previous suspects were seen demolishing the signs and then the cows joined in! :cow :cow

It is sad to report that desparation seems to be the order of the day in that particular area to the expression of ones democratic right . At no time have there been any 'no thanks' signs put up in return or retaliation.

In the grand scale of world affairs the sign removal is absolutely nothing but it is a shame that the answer to political demonstration you disagree with is anonymous destruction and no dialogue!

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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:10 pm 
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PS :yes

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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:41 pm 
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Well DC,
Come Friday morning you will, no doubt, have a busy schedule removing all your handiwork that was not illicitely removed by others.
Not having suffered any health complaints recently, I have not had occasion to visit the surgery, but I would be very surprised if that were even to be considered a place for the display of this kind of material.
Speaking to another member of the public today, on the subject of SIGNAGE, they vouchsafed the opinion that all this brainwashing only reinforced their opposition, and that anyone who was swayed by a saturation of one side needs their thought processes seriously overhauled.
One way or another, there's an awful lot of printed material looking for a home once the dust has settled.


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 Post subject: Re: Signage
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:55 pm 
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You're correct Jim, I will have a busy schedule on Friday morning.......!!

Quote:
I would be very surprised if that were even to be considered a place for the display of this kind of material.
Then you must prepared to be very surprised as many of us were!

I for one was not swayed in my opinion despite being bombarded by the No Campaign's negative ramblings and the biased and misreporting from MSM and the BBC!

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